Help Needed!!

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timmdrum

Silver Member
I know you don¨t know what is correct, that¨s why is so funny you keep writing and writting, hahah. Don¨t worry, you are not alone in this, in fact, EVERY thread is like that...

To me is very strange that because from time to time I put myself a band aid I don´t give doctor in medicine advise or "play" doctor. So I find strange that people do that with my profession, don¨t take it personal, I could have answered the same to almost anybody at the site.

Best regards!
What's funnier to me is that you need to take your own advice, but regarding English. Telling me I'm wrong repeatedly with sentences full of spelling, grammar, and punctuation errors is very ironic. :LOL:

Also, I never claimed to be correct about anything that I said from the beginning that I wasn't sure about. I did comment about things that I was more sure of. Maybe I'm right, maybe not, but did your ridiculing help resolve anything? Maybe you should just keep scrolling if you can't do better than that. Is your answer the one true correct one? If so, I didn't see you ridicule others who got it wrong, as you did me. :rolleyes: My attempts to continue the dialog were in effort to learn. Sorry it bugged you. However, if you don't like it, why add non-constructive, snide comments? They're not helpful.

Alex, your answers would seem a little more sincere and helpful, if you would stop the "hahahah" after the threads you disagree with, and explain what you feel is correct rather than ridicule. Thanks.
Heh- thanks. I feel for his students if this is how he reacts to them, rather than saying something constructive. I also had a paraphrased Shakespeare quote in mind, but I took the high road. :)

You seem to be debating yourself both for and against relative note values / note relationships. Clarifying:

— There isn’t a “normal” or “actual” note relative to the meter.

— A note’s value is defined relative to other note values, and not its name.

Better yet, let’s use currency to drive the point home. Since you’re in the US, think of it this way:

— When buying something priced at $1, we could use a $1 bill, two 50c coins, 4 quarters, etc. to buy it.

— If the price changes to say $1.25, would the value/relationship of any coin change in order to make up the additional 25c?
I believe part of this issue is that the quotes in replies don't contain the full thread of replies, only the most recent one. Hence, I typed "I'm losing track of the thread because I don't wanna keep scrolling up & down to see what was replied to what." I'm aware that the notes don't change value relative to each other. I'm not debating myself on that. (I may have used incorrect verbiage at points, due to being up late, and I already found and acknowledged one time I misspoke, saying half when I meant whole.) My point from the beginning on this subject is that they do change what and how many counts their value is depending on which time sig they're in, and that's what I was always referring to when mentioning "normal" (4/4) vs. otherwise. In 4/4, the quarter note gets the counts. In 6/8 (or anything/8), the eighth note gets the counts. In x/8, a quarter still has the same value as 2 eighths and 4 16ths, etc; I never said they didn't. A quarter does hold two counts' value in this sig, which means a half note holds 4, and in theory a whole note (which I've never seen used) or whole rest (which I recall seeing plenty) would hold 8, which is higher than the number of counts in a measure of 6/8, but less than 12/8 and the much less common 9/8. Therefore a whole rest's value in counts *and* relative to other notes/rests does change, since I've seen a single whole rest used to indicate one tacet measure of 6/8. (As I stated before, I don't recall seeing it used in the same manner in 12/8, mainly because my concert band pieces back in school were typically not in 12/8. ) I have never seen a single tacet 6/8 measure indicated with a dotted half rest.

Your money example doesn't work for my point, mainly because- AGAIN- I know that note values don't change relative to each other, but in music, we do have multiple time sig's where a different number of notes fill a measure. Consider a measure of 4/4 as a dollar/measure that consists of 4 quarters or 8 "eighth coins" worth 12.5 cents, etc, yet in an alternative currency value system (which doesn't exist, which is why your example doesn't work), 6/8, a dollar/measure contains 75 cents / 3 quarters/ 6 eighth coins, but in either case, a paper dollar bill is still a whole dollar/measure. All the coins' values relative to each other remains consistent, but the value of the dollar/measure changes. A whole rest / $1 coupon gets you 100 cents- 4 quarters- off an item (or from playing notes) in one currency, but only 75 cents- 3 quarters' worth- off in the other.
 

timmdrum

Silver Member
OK - I thought it was for drum notation (with this being Drummerworld and all).
And drums don't really sustain, except for roll notation.
In drumset notation, you're correct, but with tympani, note and rest values are used the same as with any other pitched instrument; notes ring for the length of the note value, and you muffle the head when a rest appears, using a circluar motion with your hand. There are also rolls still notated in the same manner as with a snare drum (except no buzz rolls), just as with keyboard percussion.
 

Alex Sanguinetti

Silver Member
What's funnier to me is that you need to take your own advice, but regarding English. Telling me I'm wrong repeatedly with sentences full of spelling, grammar, and punctuation errors is very ironic. :LOL:


To Timmdrum,

I´m a foreigner (contacting you from Spain) who writes and talks in 5 languajes all as bad as English, so I hope that answers you. It doesn´t bug me you said I write with mistakes or badly, it is a reality, the same as it is a reality you know VERY LITTLE about music theory, and probably drumming in general, etc. I hope it does not bug you that because it is very easy to realize.

Now, if you want to talk about drumming I post my playing and you post yours, how about that?

1 -UP TEMPO

2 - SLOW TEMPO

Man, I suggest you don´t give drumming advice, I don´t give grammar advice in English or in any Languaje...

Looking forward to WATCH your video.
 
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fl.tom

Senior Member
My point from the beginning on this subject is that they do change what and how many counts their value is depending on which time sig they're in, and that's what I was always referring to when mentioning "normal" (4/4) vs. otherwise. In 4/4, the quarter note gets the counts. In 6/8 (or anything/8), the eighth note gets the counts. In x/8, a quarter still has the same value as 2 eighths and 4 16ths, etc; I never said they didn't. A quarter does hold two counts' value in this sig, which means a half note holds 4, and in theory a whole note (which I've never seen used) or whole rest (which I recall seeing plenty) would hold 8, which is higher than the number of counts in a measure of 6/8, but less than 12/8 and the much less common 9/8. Therefore a whole rest's value in counts *and* relative to other notes/rests does change, since I've seen a single whole rest used to indicate one tacet measure of 6/8. (As I stated before, I don't recall seeing it used in the same manner in 12/8, mainly because my concert band pieces back in school were typically not in 12/8. ) I have never seen a single tacet 6/8 measure indicated with a dotted half rest.
In my first post of this thread, I quoted a sentence of post #30 where you were unnecessarily second guessing yourself with a thought process was steering you down the wrong path:

if, in 6/8, a half note = 3 counts, same as a dotted quarter (I'm not sure about that either)
Given the leading “if” and the trailing uncertainty, my reply was to simply just think of the half note here in terms of eighth notes (i.e. instead of counts) so you would confirm to yourself that both the value & count of a half note and a dotted quarter are never equal, and the 2nd measure was complete with 6 eighth notes.

Yes, individual/number-of counts per note change when the meter changes what note gets the count (it’s just different subdivisions), but it does -not- change their “relative” count (i.e. count relative to each other; also bolded above). A half note always is always half the value and count of a whole note, etc. And the same mathematical subdivision applies to every other note and rest, and why both relative values and relative counts do not change. Their ratio is constant, regardless of meter.

And before replying that this is also already known, please consider rereading previous posts. If you were tired, you very well may have stated or implied things you didn’t intend, but all we have to go on is what was written.

Your money example doesn't work for my point, mainly because- AGAIN- I know that note values don't change relative to each other, but in music, we do have multiple time sig's where a different number of notes fill a measure. Consider a measure of 4/4 as a dollar/measure that consists of 4 quarters or 8 "eighth coins" worth 12.5 cents, etc, yet in an alternative currency value system (which doesn't exist, which is why your example doesn't work), 6/8, a dollar/measure contains 75 cents / 3 quarters/ 6 eighth coins, but in either case, a paper dollar bill is still a whole dollar/measure. All the coins' values relative to each other remains consistent, but the value of the dollar/measure changes. A whole rest / $1 coupon gets you 100 cents- 4 quarters- off an item (or from playing notes) in one currency, but only 75 cents- 3 quarters' worth- off in the other.
What seems to have been the source of confusion from post #30 onward is how/what notes/rests are used to fill a measure. No matter how atypical seeing a half note/rest or whole note/rest in 6/8 may seem, it does not introduce any uncertainty in the original exam question/problem, or transcribing music in any time signature.

In that sense, the money example is applicable. The music notation used here is constant just like the single currency referenced, and a change in time signature is analogous to a change in price.

Succinctly put, a measure is defined by a time signature, and there are a finite set of notes/rests with constant relative ratios that can be used to complete it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Please also understand I’ve been consistently trying to help here without being disrespectful. I have made a few typos, but the focus has been on the same point(s). I don’t have a lot of free time so I’m going to politely bow out of the discussion now, and I trust with a quick review of some of the previous posts, it will be clear how we got to this point. :)

Sincerely, best regards.
 

toddbishop

Platinum Member
Jeez. Obviously there's a lot of confusion about 6/8. For anyone following this and feeling completely confused by all of this gibberish, I wrote a blog post explaining what it is. Here's the upshot, as defined by the people who made up the idea of "6/8" in the first place:

It is a compound meter, counted in 2. Compound duple is the descriptive name used in music theory.

Compound means a three note subdivision— a triplet feel, in drummer terms. The opposite of compound is simple, which refers to ordinary meters with a two note subdivision, e.g. 4/4, 3/4, 5/4, 2/2.

Duple means there are two beats per measure. Triple, quadruple, and quintuple meters have three, four, and five beats per measure, respectively.

So common time signatures/meters have descriptive names like simple triple (3/4), compound quadruple (12/8), compound quintuple (15/8).

The beat is the primary felt or conducted pulse in a piece of music. In compound meters like 6/8, that pulse is dotted quarter notes— which are three 8th notes long, which gives us the three-note subdivision.

So 6/8 is counted in 2, with the dotted-quarter note getting the beat, with a three-8th note subdivision. Knowing that, it should be obvious what you're supposed to do with the rhythm in the test question, and how to deal with meters like 9/8, 12/8, 15/8.
 

fl.tom

Senior Member
Nothing in the last post contradicts or addresses my previous point(s), but since my post was the only intervening one, I’ll bite...

Those comments were only intended to clarify multiple misstatements made about note relationships changing with meter. And are as applicable to 6/8 as any time signature.

They were primarily intended for one person (the other subsequently realized he initially misread two sixteenths as two eighths), and to avoid potential confusion by the OP.

Some people find it easier to understand time signatures with the basic math behind them than they do learning additional music theory terminology, and thus the approach taken.

My initial clarification was straightforward and I agreed with you on how to solve the exam problem in post #33.
 

timmdrum

Silver Member
To Timmdrum,

I´m a foreigner (contacting you from Spain) who writes and talks in 5 languajes all as bad as English, so I hope that answers you. It doesn´t bug me you said I write with mistakes or badly, it is a reality, the same as it is a reality you know VERY LITTLE about music theory, and probably drumming in general, etc. I hope it does not bug you that because it is very easy to realize.

Now, if you want to talk about drumming I post my playing and you post yours, how about that?

1 -UP TEMPO

2 - SLOW TEMPO

Man, I suggest you don´t give drumming advice, I don´t give grammar advice in English or in any Languaje...

Looking forward to WATCH your video.
Man, this might be the most immature post I've seen on here since Sticks4Drums left. I get you're foreign. It doesn't matter. I think it's great you speak English and 4 other foreign languages. That's awesome. I don't mind that you use it with a lot of mistakes. But it's still very ironic to correct someone on *any* subject, and have mistakes in your language while doing it. It's not an insult to you, just ironic and funny. But then you want to go commenting on how much I know on music theory and "drumming in general", based on one conversation about convoluted notation in 6/8 where many of us have various correct and incorrect responses? And THEN you want to change the subject to a playing contest...?!? This is ridiculous in any language. "Better" playing is relative, and a "drum-off" is as stupid as those teen "dance-off" movies. Music and drumming is not a competition unless an event is a competition (like DCI).

I'll not be addressing this further. Admins, handle this, please. :rolleyes:
 
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timmdrum

Silver Member
In my first post of this thread, I quoted a sentence of post #30 where you were unnecessarily second guessing yourself with a thought process was steering you down the wrong path:


Given the leading “if” and the trailing uncertainty, my reply was to simply just think of the half note here in terms of eighth notes (i.e. instead of counts) so you would confirm to yourself that both the value & count of a half note and a dotted quarter are never equal, and the 2nd measure was complete with 6 eighth notes.
I believe my point with "if, in 6/8, a half note = 3 counts, same as a dotted quarter (I'm not sure about that either)" was that, in 6/8, a half note wouldn't be used to fill half a measure, because a dotted quarter, that consists of three 8th notes, does the same. I believe (at this point, don't recall) someone else was saying that a half note would suffice here, but it doesn't.

Yes, individual/number-of counts per note change when the meter changes what note gets the count (it’s just different subdivisions), but it does -not- change their “relative” count (i.e. count relative to each other; also bolded above). A half note always is always half the value and count of a whole note, etc. And the same mathematical subdivision applies to every other note and rest, and why both relative values and relative counts do not change. Their ratio is constant, regardless of meter.

And before replying that this is also already known, please consider rereading previous posts. If you were tired, you very well may have stated or implied things you didn’t intend, but all we have to go on is what was written.
At this point I'm not gonna go back & forth between pages and up & down on certain pages. I know I stated all that you just re-stated again early on. I don't believe I ever said that note values change relative to each other, only that they hold different counts in a x/8 sig. I don't understand why you keep repeating that back to me. I may have gotten other things wrong, but I don't believe I ever misspoke on that.

What seems to have been the source of confusion from post #30 onward is how/what notes/rests are used to fill a measure. No matter how atypical seeing a half note/rest or whole note/rest in 6/8 may seem, it does not introduce any uncertainty in the original exam question/problem, or transcribing music in any time signature.

In that sense, the money example is applicable. The music notation used here is constant just like the single currency referenced, and a change in time signature is analogous to a change in price.

Succinctly put, a measure is defined by a time signature, and there are a finite set of notes/rests with constant relative ratios that can be used to complete it. Nothing more, nothing less.
My comment on that was that a change in time sig. changes how many notes/coins constitutes another unit- a measure/dollar. I don't get the "price" part of your statement but I'm willing to let it go. What I said about the money example is correct.

Please also understand I’ve been consistently trying to help here without being disrespectful.
Thanks, sincerely. Several others here would do well to follow your example.
 
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