Interesting quote from Dave Elitch regarding rudiments

OHD said:
I don't know, he's got tons of students. Maybe he's seen a trend of people that focus on the wrong thing or something like that.

But yeah, it could be just marketing. Nothing wrong with that if you take it in context.
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I mean-- lots of people have tons of students. It does make me wonder what kind of people are coming to him-- where he says "So many times when I’m working with someone, they are working on things simply because they can’t do them", suggests he has a different kind of pipeline going than someone like say Peter Erksine.

Matt Suda said:
For anyone still interested, Dave responded to the comments and pushback he received on the original post:

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I appreciate that he forgives everyone's "confusion" about his comment.

I don't know who he's talking about, that says "just learn the rudiments and it will make you a good drum set player", I've never seen that. He should name the people he's discrediting.

The idea that the drum set now is some totally different animal from what it was in the past is completely false, ahistorical.
 
toddbishop said:
Totally with him on the ratamacues though, hahahaha!
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Steve Gadd got one of his signature licks out of the ratamacue.

Jeff Hamilton diggs the rudiment too

I, personally, don't see anything wrong with taking some time getting acquainted with rudiments. Especially when you take something like Wilcoxons AAD and practice it over different foot ostinatos. Putting some time into stuff like that can really open up one's playing with regards to independence, as well as giving you vocabulary on how different stickings combine to create musical phrases
 
bermuda said:
This is not live TV. We have the ability to edit text, re-shoot video, etc. before putting stuff online. There's no excuse for posting something that requires such vehement backpeddling.
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Whatever, he's hardly the first well known drummer to offer questionable advice. If any of us look at our own journeys, we've almost certainly believed in things at various point that ended up being less than correct (I certainly have).
 
Jeff Graw said:
If any of us look at our own journeys, we've almost certainly believed in things at various point that ended up being less than correct (I certainly have).
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True, but he put info out there that he immediately had to clarify, instead of getting it right in the first place. This isn't a question of hindsight 10 or 20 years down the line.
 
toddbishop said:
And more context, he's responding to a quote from Stanley Spector:

View attachment 142754

And the rest of his quote:



Maybe it's just my natural cynicism, but all I see is the commercial angle with this, coming at people like Everything you know is wrong! Seek out my proprietary content for more information. Spector had more than a little of that going too.

There's actually a telling(?) exchange with Dan Weiss, who commented:



Elitch responds:



The bold is mine. Like, does he know anything about any of those players? I'm not sure he does. Which would explain a lot.

Totally with him on the ratamacues though, hahahaha!
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Spector continuously advertised his method in music publications in the 70’s and 80’s. I remember seeing his ads (maybe modern drummer, downbeat). He was not quite as ubiquitous as the perfect pitch guy that advertised for years on the back page of International Musician (the union paper). He was an example of drum method marketing pre internet. Actually pre cable tv and vhs (dvd). I think his lessons came on cassette tape.
 
Sebenza said:
Steve Gadd got one of his signature licks out of the ratamacue.
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I can't do a thing with them.

bermuda said:
True, but he put info out there that he immediately had to clarify, instead of getting it right in the first place. This isn't a question of hindsight 10 or 20 years down the line.
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I think we're participating in some 2024 style marketing here-- people are really leaning into the any and all attention is good for me thing. Easiest way to get that is to just say unconscionably wrong things.

Multijd said:
Spector continuously advertised his method in music publications in the 70’s and 80’s. I remember seeing his ads (maybe modern drummer, downbeat). He was not quite as ubiquitous as the perfect pitch guy that advertised for years on the back page of International Musician (the union paper). He was an example of drum method marketing pre internet. Actually pre cable tv and vhs (dvd). I think his lessons came on cassette tape.
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I wrote about him on my site a little bit, and some people sent me some of his materials. It all looked pretty thin to me, I think the substance of it was in the actual lessons.

It's unfortunate, he was so secretive about his stuff that he basically has no legacy. He should have published.
 
There's a really unfortunate aspect to the debate about the relevancy of rudiments. Same goes for the frequent debate about the relevancy of reading.

The unfortunate aspect is that the conversation itself stems from people mistakenly thinking that these things are incredibly difficult to learn. Isn't that true? If people thought that it was fairly easy to learn these things, then they would probably just go ahead and learn them...rather than debating it.

Ironically, I think rudiments and reading actually ARE pretty easy to learn.

Since this discussion is about rudiments, I guess I'll stick to that topic. Virtually everyone agrees that singles, doubles, and flams are essential. So the debate seems to center around all those "other" rudiments. What's funny is...if a person can play really good singles, doubles, and flams, then the "other" rudiments are fairly straightforward. After all, they're just little patterns created with singles, doubles, and flams.

I'm not saying there isn't any time or effort required at all. I'm just saying that learning all the rudiments (once a person has a handle on singles, doubles, and flams) is much easier than some people fear.
 
Part of the point is maybe that most of us have limited practice time or mental energy to practice, so where do you put that? I can play 99% of what I want/need to without having super great snare drum sticking skills in a pop/rock/metal type setting. I have spent an inordinate amount of time working on my doubles and singles speed simply because I *do* get a vibe like a guy is a "real" drummer when he can whip that stuff out on the rare occasion. I want to be a real drummer too, so I continue to work on it, even though it seldom comes up. (I do think the single work has paid off on some faster tom fills that used to be harder for me).

Dave Elitch also made a comment once about the value (or lack thereof) of practicing everything right and left hand lead. That one sort of resonated with me. I've never really needed or wanted to do left hand lead in a drumset setting, unless you count coming in on the off beat, which isn't really left hand lead in my book.
 
Tamboreter said:
I can feel it in my bones... as a result of this thread, pretty soon there will be YouTube videos showing us how to incorporate Ratamacues into our drumset playing. ;)
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I’m kind of feeling for Dave because what he said kind of relates to my feelings about using scales and modes on melodic instruments. I’ve often said that I greatly prefer chord based playing because it always sounds like you’re running scales and modes when you use scales and modes to decide what to play. And I get that same kind of pushback…”You don’t think you need to learn scales? You don’t think you need to learn modes? How can you learn chords if you don’t know scales?”

No, I never once said anything of the sort. You absolutely need to learn how scales are formed to learn chords, since they’re formed by scale degrees. And I learned the modes and how to make modal melodies and solos. I just don’t enjoy how they sound when your goal should be making music that sounds good, regardless of whether it fits into your little mode box. And if I’m playing modally or scaly and I want to use a note that’s not in the scale or mode I “should” be using, by golly I’m going to play it. That’s why when someone asks me my favorite scales to play, my reply is always the chromatic scale, or all the notes.

This to me sounds like the equivalent of using rudiments to figure out what to play on drums. They’re great hand/mind exercises, just like learning scales and modes. And of course, we all use them to a certain point. But are you going to put using them above going with your gut and doing what you think sounds best? Not if you value your music. “Oops…can’t use that fill because I’m sticking to 7 stroke rolls only.” Nobody does that. Come on!

That’s not to say you’ll never use a 7 stroke roll…just that nailing a rudiment shouldn’t be your purpose as a drummer when some ham fisted “what the hell did I just do” lick sounds better at that particular moment. So while I think Dave stated it awkwardly, I don’t feel he was wrong. Learn all you can, but when it’s time to perform, play what feels good and don’t make it all about working in some rudiment.
 
JimmyM said:
This to me sounds like the equivalent of using rudiments to figure out what to play on drums. They’re great hand/mind exercises, just like learning scales and modes. And of course, we all use them to a certain point. But are you going to put using them above going with your gut and doing what you think sounds best? Not if you value your music. “Oops…can’t use that fill because I’m sticking to 7 stroke rolls only.” Nobody does that. Come on!
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yes...if my gut says that is what to do...and it has said that many times in my life, with some success, and some failure, but at least I had the option

and also, what is wrong with writing a pattern based on the rudiments if it fits the part? There are a jillion songs where the choice was made to use the paradiddle pattern split between the hi hat, ride and snare to create groove....is that all wrong just because it is a rudiment?

I still don't get this war against/distaste for the rudiments....it is really weird to me.
 
JimmyM said:
This to me sounds like the equivalent of using rudiments to figure out what to play on drums. They’re great hand/mind exercises, just like learning scales and modes. And of course, we all use them to a certain point. But are you going to put using them above going with your gut and doing what you think sounds best? Not if you value your music. “Oops…can’t use that fill because I’m sticking to 7 stroke rolls only.” Nobody does that. Come on!
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Not sure I follow your thought process here. It's just stuff, playing vocabulary. If you know stuff to play, maybe you'll play it sometime. If you don't know any stuff to play, you'll be flailing, and maybe something OK will happen, maybe not.

JimmyM said:
That’s not to say you’ll never use a 7 stroke roll…just that nailing a rudiment shouldn’t be your purpose as a drummer when some ham fisted “what the hell did I just do” lick sounds better at that particular moment. So while I think Dave stated it awkwardly, I don’t feel he was wrong. Learn all you can, but when it’s time to perform, play what feels good and don’t make it all about working in some rudiment.
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Uhhh that's not what he said. What he said doesn't make any sense.
 
I totally get what Dave is saying about people practicing the wrong things. If your goal is to get into a touring pop band, why are you trying to get your patachesseflaflas up to 200bpm when you can’t play to a click with a good feel? Maybe your time might be better spent getting your Ableton programming up to speed. Kenny Arnoff talks about functional practice. Practice the things you are going to use on a gig. Can working on rudiments help with some of that? Sure. Spending all your time working on rudiments can also distract you from working on other weaknesses in your playing. There are many skills you need to play in a modern band besides hand technique. You have to keep your goals in mind and balance things.
 
Great thread. I can learn just about any pop or rock song you put in front of me fairly easily. Drums have always come naturally to me. I would say that I am a better than a good drummer. I have great feel, dynamics, and timing. Solid.

I have never learned or practiced rudiments or taken a lesson.

I wish I had. I suffer when it comes to being proficient in musical language and I suffer when I am alone and being creative, because there are some things I just can't do, that I want to do. Lack of formal training never held me back in any band or jam, but it holds me back as a drummer, as a musician and to myself. This dude is wrong whomever he is.
 
After 45+ years of matched grip-only playing, I’m making the switch to traditional grip full time due to some arthritis issues in my left hand. One of the things I’m specifically struggling with and working on is simply controlling the stick in what seems like a completely counterintuitive way to hold the confounded thing. :D

One of the ways I’m working on that control is going through some basic rudiments- singles, double, paradiddles, flams, and a few others that I find especially useful in the music I play. I agree with other sentiments that it’s not an either/or thing. More knowledge/development is never a bad thing, in my opinion.
 
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