Gavin Harrison here!

Hi AllenS

Gavin! How are you? You're one of my favorite "modern" rock drummers. I appreciate your humility and your musicality. Cheers.

thanks - I'm doing fine and somehow seem to be working more than before the "lock-down".

Hi MGC101

I've included a little cheat sheet with the applied system discussed by Gavin. It is just the first 24 measures of page 38, with the bass drum playing the original notation and the snare filling in the gaps. The right hand and left foot play a standard swing.

Excellent ! Thanks for posting that. It was exactly the first part of my lesson with Dave Cutler in 1980 and the second part nicely ties in with Alannah's post. The "long and short" idea. Dave had me play every "short" note (any 8th note in the syncopation melody) as a stepped hi hat and then all the "long notes" (everything in the melody that is longer than an 8th note) on the bass drum - meanwhile all the missing parts of a triplet played as ghost notes on the snare drum and the ride swing pattern in the right hand of course.

I've been working on a few more ideas lately. Let me see if I can explain them.

The right hand plays swing on the ride
The left hand plays the melody on the snare drum
All the missing notes of a triplet are played between the hi hat (stepped) and the bass drum. (Where there is only space to fit in one foot use the hi hat stepped. Where there is space for two feet - play hi hat then bass drum. Where there is space for more then two notes just run HH, BD, HH, BD etc.

As the focus in this example is about the order that the feet fill in the missing triplets (from the melody) let's call this "Left Foot Leading". Here's the first 4 bars. (Ted Reed book page 38).

left foot leading.jpg

and once you have that down - try "Right Foot Leading". I'll let you work that out.

cheers
Gavin
 
MGC101 said:
Totally hear you on that. That aforementioned John Riley book "The Art of Bop Drumming" and its logical progression of comp examples really helped me get the hi-hat more properly "installed" on beats 2 and 4.
Click to expand...

Cheers Michael, I'll definitely go grab that book - I've got Modern Reading also but with that and Syncopation doing jazz stuff is up to your own discipline, would be nice to have something that's properly structured towards it! Thanks for that!

Gavin Harrison said:
As the focus in this example is about the order that the feet fill in the missing triplets (from the melody) let's call this "Left Foot Leading". Here's the first 4 bars. (Ted Reed book page 38).

View attachment 91949
Click to expand...

Thanks for including this idea Gavin! I'm definitely going to explore this, particularly as my 4 way co-ordination needs work! I'd imagine after actually getting the notes down, making the linear parts flow in a convincing triplet 'sound' is going to be a challenge.

Alannah
 
Hi Gavin, hope you are well! I was wondering what your experience is on the subject of bass drum depth. It’s a subject that’s always eluded me slightly (along with many drummers I feel). I’ve noticed that for a long time you played a 22x17” but then switched to a 22x15” with the blue kit and then went back to the 22x17” for the new kit. I was wondering what your thought process was when making those changes? And was there anything in particular that made you choose those sizes over 14” or 16” depths? Sorry if I’m splitting hairs here - just curious!

All the best,
Robin
 
Gavin Harrison said:
The right hand plays swing on the ride
The left hand plays the melody on the snare drum
All the missing notes of a triplet are played between the hi hat (stepped) and the bass drum. (Where there is only space to fit in one foot use the hi hat stepped. Where there is space for two feet - play hi hat then bass drum. Where there is space for more then two notes just run HH, BD, HH, BD etc.
Click to expand...

Wow! I couldn't help myself and went and made another 24 measures based on this concept. About to sit down with this here and give it a go...thank you so much Gavin for giving me something awesome (and seemingly very challenging from the looks of it) to work on this afternoon. And as well, thanks for reminding me to notate in 12/8 for this kinda thing. I did the math - I just saved my printer from having to print a little 3 144 times. Cleans up the page and certainly helps when writing it by hand!

Michael
 

Attachments

  • syncopationswingsystem_leftfootleading_p38_m1m24.pdf
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Hello Gavin, how are you ?
I understand that we can ask questions here (I'm not very familiar with this forum...)
I wanted to know : what are the bass drum beaters you use ? I couldn't identify them.
Also in your faq you told us about the pitch of your toms, but how do you identify the enotes from your toms ? By ear, with a software linked to mics ?
Cheers from France ! Thanks.
 
Hi Alannah

I'm definitely going to explore this, particularly as my 4 way co-ordination needs work! I'd imagine after actually getting the notes down, making the linear parts flow in a convincing triplet 'sound' is going to be a challenge.

yes getting all the right notes in the right order is one thing...getting it to sound smooth and swinging with the right dynamics is what takes the real time - but is actually the most rewarding.

Hi DrummerRobin

I was wondering what your experience is on the subject of bass drum depth. It’s a subject that’s always eluded me slightly (along with many drummers I feel). I’ve noticed that for a long time you played a 22x17” but then switched to a 22x15” with the blue kit and then went back to the 22x17” for the new kit. I was wondering what your thought process was when making those changes?

Here's a funny thing. I played the blue kit (with the 22x15) for a few tours and when I got home I had the black and white kit (with the 22x17) set up in my studio. I found playing that 22x17 bass drum (especially with double bass drum pedal) a lot easier. When the blue kit returned home I tried both bass drums side by side and concluded that the 17" depth was easier for me to play. It could be the tension and the amount of air it takes before it rebounds off the front head - maybe just that size volume of air is easier to move? I don't really know. I always assumed that the shallower depths would be easier to play - but to my surprise the opposite was true - at least for me. I have in the past had 14" and 16" (even 12" on my first drumset!) but I haven't played those depths in a while. Maybe there's a golden ratio (diameter to depth) that just works better?

Hi Michael

I couldn't help myself and went and made another 24 measures based on this concept.

thanks very much for laying that out. Once I have a new system I usually spend a long time just trying to play the first 8 bars - but I do make a deliberate effort to go ahead and get through all 8 pages of the syncopation. The first page never has more than 3 notes in a row - after that it gets slightly harder on the other 7 pages. Part of the fun for me is the simultaneous sight reading and calculating how to perform the system in a real time continuous flow. You can feel the brain waves moving through your head. It's very rewarding and probably why I'm still practising this material 40 years later. More recently I've been playing a system that is the same as the first example you attached - but instead of 2&4 stepped on the hi hat - I've been playing continuous quarter note triplets stepped on the hi hat. Does that make sense?

Hi Samuel

I wanted to know : what are the bass drum beaters you use ? I couldn't identify them.

The bass drum beaters are Sonor SCH 28.

Also in your faq you told us about the pitch of your toms, but how do you identify the notes from your toms ? By ear, with a software linked to mics.

I just use my ears - and reference my piano to find the pitch. Sometimes it's quite hard because of the overtones a real drum might produce. It's not always a clear note.

cheers
Gavin
 
Gavin Harrison said:
Part of the fun for me is the simultaneous sight reading and calculating how to perform the system in a real time continuous flow.
Click to expand...
When I was working through jazz material initially, there was always a printed swing pattern above the comp notes, specifically showing that the & of 2 and 4 is"hard" to play (because it lines up with the swing) and the & of 1 and 3 were "easy" (as they played in the empty space.) Eventually these became memorized, and the need to actually see the swing and how it related to the pattern diminished, and it was actually easier to see just a simple string of notes and apply a swing pattern to it in real time. That was almost part of the practice to me - quickly scanning and applying the swing (and left foot hi hat) without needing to see it. I actually find it harder sometimes to see the fully printed swing because my brain is trying to calculate all that extra notation, despite it being something I'm doing automatically. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I completely get the value of "sight reading and calculating the system in real time" and yes, I can absolutely feel my brain kicking into over drive and flowing.

Gavin Harrison said:
More recently I've been playing a system that is the same as the first example you attached - but instead of 2&4 stepped on the hi hat - I've been playing continuous quarter note triplets stepped on the hi hat. Does that make sense?
Click to expand...

I think! You mentioned them being quarter note triplets - so 6 hi-hats per measure, with the hi hats having a little 3 over 2 with each two-beat swing? This would mean the hi-hat lines up with the left-hand/right-foot every two eighth note triplets...yikes! I have my work cut out for me with that one!

Like this?
IMG-6487.jpg

Thanks again Gavin. Really fun to work through this material and getting an insight into the things you work on is awesome. Got enough practice material to keep me busy for years to come.

Michael
 
Hi Michael,

yes that is correct but I think I might be able to help you with the overall approach. Back in the beginning of trying to figure this out in 1980 I realised that I was going to have to break it down and simplify the whole thing. I couldn't just start with bar one and torture myself until I learnt it - note for note 'parrot fashion' - and then move onto bar 2 and so on. So I thought of it like this: The notes on the page - when interpreted as swing (triplets) could only ever be 'on the beat' or the '3rd part of a triplet'. First I need to figure what parts are playing an ostinato? In this system we're looking at - it's the ride and the stepped hi hat.
Swing.jpg

You need to be TOTALLY comfortable in playing this - to the point where it becomes almost automatic and requires a minimum of concentration because you're going to be focused on the parts that are always moving - the 'melody' - and the 'filling in'. So to make it as simple as I could I started with these four bars:
EX 1.jpg

that gives me the simple 'on beats' and 'off beats' (the 'off beats' of course being interpreted as the 3rd part of the triplet). With every system (in this Ted Reed context) that I ever approached I started by playing these 4 bars for a VERY LONG time - and even when I got it going onto the 8 pages of syncopation and found a point where I tripped over - I'd come back to these four bars and practise them over and over. I needed the ostinato to be virtually automatic so I could just focus on the rules of the system and calculate exactly what the bass drum and left hand are going to do.

I also needed to work out what happens when there are two written 8ths in the line like this:

EX 2.jpg

which is a nice turn round. Then the final part of the 'warm up' approach was to figure out what your 'moving parts' are going to play during a bar like this:

Ex 3.jpg

Then you have covered every possibility of the written notes. The only other thing to figure out is what happens during long rests - like bars 9 & 10 and 17 & 18 on the first page (page 38) of the Syncopation exercises. Once you have that down then you should be able to play any system that you're striving for. It's just a question of time, effort, concentration and will power.

best of luck
Gavin
 
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Gavin - I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to write that.

Humbling and insightful to hear that ways you may approach something like this, and it will be invaluable to me as I attempt some of these systems. I have been having so much fun just playing the original Dave Cutler system (with the snare filling in the gaps) and am finally working my way onto the second page. Even in my very basic attempts to try out the new systems you've mentioned, I can see that the approach you've suggested is the only feasible way. As you've stated, trying too much at once is literally torturous.

Thanks again Gavin. As I am sure is the case with a lot of us here, I have been practicing a lot during this quarantine. Out of all the textbooks and material I own, it's awesome that here I am back with my tattered copy of Syncopation and a batch of fresh systems. I can't think of a book I've gotten more mileage out of, and from the sounds of it, I've barely scratched the surface.

Michael
 
Gavin Harrison said:
yes getting all the right notes in the right order is one thing...getting it to sound smooth and swinging with the right dynamics is what takes the real time - but is actually the most rewarding.
Click to expand...

Agreed, and something that I fully realise I should be constantly monitoring.

Many thanks to you for the big post explaining the left foot leading and how you break it down - this is something that I'll chip away at, lots to digest! However I'll be taking it straight from the on and off beat left foot ostinato just to get the coordination down. You've given me lots to practice, I really appreciate your time!

Sadly I'm not in a position to get to a full kit in this lockdown so I'm being as disciplined as possible with pads!

Cheers,
Alannah
 
Some nice challenging exercise-talks here going on at the moment. Love the quarter note triplet stepped hihat over the swing ride!

But to my question: I know you are a huge Porcaro fan so might I ask you to lend me your ears?
On his tutorial on the rosanna shuffle (findable on youtube) he said he plays a ghostnote on the second beat of the third triplet right after the backbeat (which is f... hard to play well). I tried to listen very closely to it but can't hear it. I can hear all other ghostnotes though. Well...do my ears trick me here or did he just accidently said it but did not play it like this?
How would you play it? I think there is a nice displaced version of that groove on one of your dvds, isn't it?

Greetz
 
Robert Schmidt said:
I know you are a huge Porcaro fan so might I ask you to lend me your ears?
On his tutorial on the rosanna shuffle (findable on youtube) he said he plays a ghostnote on the second beat of the third triplet right after the backbeat (which is f... hard to play well). I tried to listen very closely to it but can't hear it. I can hear all other ghostnotes though. Well...do my ears trick me here or did he just accidently said it but did not play it like this?
How would you play it? I think there is a nice displaced version of that groove on one of your dvds, isn't it?
Click to expand...

It's interesting to note that the way Jeff played it on the original record
there are a lot less ghost notes in the pattern to how he explains it (or played it in later years ) than on his instructional VHS/DVD
.

(Not that I would compare myself to Jeff - but I am guilty of the same thing with the Porcupine Tree song "The Sound Of Muzak". The day I recorded it was one thing - but after playing the song many hundreds of times later it evolved into something that had more ghost notes - and I didn't even realise it or go back and carefully listen to the original until someone pointed it out to me).

The thing about playing a ghost not immediately after a loud snare hit is that you are unlikely to really hear it as the loud note will drown out the following ghost note...but it is actually there. You can actually see it here
I guess it's more of a feel thing. Quite often you can clearly hear the ghosts when you are the person playing them - but by the time it gets mixed and lots of other sounds are on top of the drums - those nuances can easily get lost.

Regarding the technique of ghost notes - I do play them more with my wrist than my fingers - if that makes sense?

cheers
Gavin
 
hi gavin, love your playing, so very musical!

i have a question, with all thats going on right now with gig cancellations,covid, etc. do you know roughly if your upcoming pineapple thief tour in september is going ahead? obviously if you arent allowed to say anything then thats understandable :)
 
Hey Gavin,
I keep toying with the idea of picking up a BC-gigster. I know that you have/had a BC-2 and had high praise for it. After playing with it for quite some time now, are you still liking it as much and if so, are you more into the way it has made you aware of your bass drum placement or the actual sound of the bass drum that you are hearing? I've read where drummers say it sounds like a mic'ed up bass drum from the house perspective.
 
Happy Birthday Gavin! I hope the lockdown doesn't affect it too much. Having said that, I imagine being locked away in your home studio isn't too much of a drag!

...more like a series of blushdas and hertas!
 
On Porcaro... Watching that last Youtube vid of Rossana live. Does anybody else think its odd the way he ends the triplet fill with his right hand and then starts the next bar with his right hand also? Looks so awkward! When playing that fill I've always alternated my hands to start the next bar with my left leaving my right hand to start on the hats again.

Just an observation, don't want anyone on my back here!
 
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Hi drumnut87

i have a question, with all thats going on right now with gig cancellations,covid, etc. do you know roughly if your upcoming pineapple thief tour in september is going ahead? obviously if you arent allowed to say anything then thats understandable

yes there is a very big doubt hanging over it of course. We haven't cancelled or postponed yet. We are monitoring what venues in various countries are doing and have heard that some places will allow 30% capacity. However it would be financially crippling to us if we only sold 30% of the tickets and would lose too much money to make it viable. Keep up to date by following The Pineapple Thief on FaceBook.

Hi cdrums21

I keep toying with the idea of picking up a BC-gigster. I know that you have/had a BC-2 and had high praise for it. After playing with it for quite some time now, are you still liking it as much and if so, are you more into the way it has made you aware of your bass drum placement or the actual sound of the bass drum that you are hearing?

actually both - I love it. I really wouldn't want to go on tour without it. The Gigster is easily powerful enough (I have one in my studio) and I keep the volume of it pretty low. I haven't tried the BC-X but that looks even smaller than the Gigster.

Hi Ice Monster

On Porcaro... Watching that last Youtube vid of Rossana live. Does anybody else think its odd the way he ends the triplet fill with his right hand and then starts the next bar with his right hand also? Looks so awkward! When playing that fill I've always alternated my hands to start the next bar with my left leaving my right hand to start on the hats again.

yes that's a strange thing with triplet fills - depending on where you start them you can end up on the downbeat with the left hand. Having said that Jeff plays it in way that certainly sounds smooth.

thanks for the birthday wishes folks !

cheers
Gavin
 
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