Son of Vistalite Black
Well-known Member
To Son of Vistalite Black, what the magazine found unlikely was playing behind a suit-and-tie Sinatra one day and then being part of the Byrds’ “Eight Miles High” vibe on another day. Also, Elvis!
Hal Blaine
- Thread starter JRannefeld
- Start date
jda
Diamond Member
answer there: it was the same hi hat snare drum bass drum little inflection differance ..(thats French
He was (don't forget) Born in 1929 (Served in the Korean War) and Right person Right place Right time.
He was a mature person (musician) . Unafraid and understood music was Music.
He was (don't forget) Born in 1929 (Served in the Korean War) and Right person Right place Right time.
He was a mature person (musician) . Unafraid and understood music was Music.
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Chris Whitten
Platinum Member
It's more likely to be another 'sensational' addition to a story probably 90% of readers aren't interested in.
1960's studio drummers in London would play on a comedy record first thing in the morning, then a couple of tv commercials, then maybe a movie soundtrack (James Bond?), then a legit album session last thing in the day.
Chris Whitten
Platinum Member
Exactly, it's not a shock or controversial. Tat's the point.
mikyok
Platinum Member
The record company realised they had a massive hit and got the best players for the job simple as. It's the done thing.
The engineers knew his kit and playing and Hal knew the studio. He'd nail it quickly and be off to the next session. He probably didn't even know what he played on until it got released like hundreds of other songs he did.
Cheaper than x amount of takes with Karen Carpenter.
The engineers knew his kit and playing and Hal knew the studio. He'd nail it quickly and be off to the next session. He probably didn't even know what he played on until it got released like hundreds of other songs he did.
Cheaper than x amount of takes with Karen Carpenter.
I often wonder how much "replacement of the musician with a stand-in' is about producer milking more money from the project by charging the extra cost to the original artist then taking a cut of the studio musician fee.
Can you tell how the swarmy side of the business has colored my thinking?
I mean, if the issue is Karen Carpenters high note velocity, turn it down!...and mic her to allow higher gain then compress(still do-able in the pre-digital days)
Can you tell how the swarmy side of the business has colored my thinking?
I mean, if the issue is Karen Carpenters high note velocity, turn it down!...and mic her to allow higher gain then compress(still do-able in the pre-digital days)
opentune
Platinum Member
If I recall from Hal's book, in the Karen Carpenter example, he agrees she's a perfectly fine and capable drummer, but for some reason she sped up on some songs like this in studio. Some of that was tolerated back in the day but not in this instance.
Its a matter of getting it done, quick and in a few takes, calling the session player is then a useful expense, making recording efficient.
JimmyM
Diamond Member
I think that there is something to that, although not in all cases. But definitely producers had pet musicians who played all their sessions for one reason or another. Sometimes, though, the band just didn’t have the skills or discipline to do it in the studio.
Also, one thing some producers didn’t like about band members playing is that they had opinions, and studio musicians didn’t.
Bo Eder
Platinum Member
Heck, if you watch the Wrecking Crew movie, or the movie "Standing in the Shadows of Motown", or even "Hired Gun", it's obvious studio time means money - so if it's easier to get a session guy, it just makes sense. There was a point where the Beach Boys didn't really want to record because they were already busy doing all the live shows, so just going in to sing made more sense. I also recall a story when the Monkees were formed and Peter Took showed up at the studio to record the music and they asked him why he was there. He really thought he'd be a part of that, but the sessions were already happening and he was just the face to the music. I guess we as a society just want everything to be perfect, when in reality, it isn't. I also recall a rumor where Jim Keltner was called in to replace tracks of Joey Kramer with Aerosmith....and I posed this question before, would you be surprised if you found out some of your favorite rock tracks were done with session guys? This is where you get stories like Bernard replacing Ringo.....apparently it happens all the time.
dcrigger
Senior Member
And yet, while those reasons can be a factor - the overriding #1 reason for using a top flight studio musician is the far greater likelihood of creating a hit record.
Time is money - yet top tier studio players aren't cheap. And often the player in the band already knows the material backwards and forwards.
But the fact is - most of the time, these top level players simply sound that much better. Their pocket is deeper. The sound coming off their drums sounds better on playback. Their musical sensibilities are just so fined tuned as to what will making "work" versus "work not so much".
Making great records is not like manufacturing or building houses - you just don't plug in drummer A in replace of drummer B - like you can master carpenters - and expect to get anything close to the same results.
And that comparison presumes swapping between this top level pro and another one. Swapping a Hal Blaine master level studio musician for a good competent professional drummer (like me) is a huge gamble, Sure, I might be able to cut a great record - but back in the day, Hal accomplished that daily.... day in and day out.
I had the privilege of hearing Hal do a session (later on, when he was doing less records and more commercials) - and I have to say, he really was THAT good.
I love Karen and thought she was a very competent drummer.... But even given all of the time in the world - particularly in the early 70's - she could've have never made those records sound at the level that Hal and the rest of those studio players did. Again the fact they were fast was impressive - but that was secondary to how they sounded... how they felt.... how the playback sounded.
Every player has players they are most comfortable working with. Everyone has those folks they would recommend to anyone - because they know the music will turn out great. Producers are no different. They are generally just musicians tasked with putting a record together - and often that starts with "casting" - and with so much on the line, everyone always leans towards utilizing what they know is going to work.
Yes, bands are often behind the curve in this regard. Though the fact is - for good or bad - this has changed over the years (decades). It used to be that everyone in the room had to nail it top to bottom to get a master take. Then punch in and out capabilities got better and folks could do more "fixes" - this was much more difficult to do with drums, plus drums still needed to sound pretty good and balanced in the room - to sound good on tape. So for a long time, we saw more drummers being swapped for session guys, than say guitar player. Because it was more possible for a guitar player to just throw hours and hours into patching together a perfect take.
Now with DAW's, things are even more forgiving - with everything - including drums - being so much more correctable. So what was impossible to do - is now somewhat possible. It can be a compromise... or not.
Unlike back in 1970, where there's was nothing to be done to "fix" a drummer's performance.... so someone like Karen's performances couldn't be massaged into sound like a Hal Blaine..... not even remotely.... not close at all. If you wanted it to sound like that - you had to hire someone that could that - for real.... all the way through each take.
Almost 50 years of doing sessions here - and I can't say I've ever heard of anyone doing that. Maybe in some fly by night situations. Most producers are way more concerned with having their record be successful than skimming a buck here and there. Because without hitting some relative home runs - there will be less and less work for that producer in the future.
Yes doable - but doesn't even remotely sound the same.
Sure those adjusts could be made to compensate for inadequacies in balance, in tone... but the end result never sounds as good as starting from something that doesn't have to be fixed in the first place. This still holds true today - an inexperienced drummer playing cymbals way too loud compared to the kick, snare and toms can, of course, be adjusted to some degree. But it can't change how much hi hat leakage is as loud as the snare in the snare mic - it can't fix how the drums in the room mics sound small, because the cymbals are making the bass drum sound soft. Yes, we can turn up the close BD to compensate - but that doesn't begin to sound like a bigger beefy sound coming at those mics acoustically.
Some producers, some sessions... maybe. But most top players are hired to use their experience and expertise to "help" make a great record. Of course, the producer has the ultimate say - but during the process... the player most often creates their part.... and is way more often than is is engaged in "So what do you think?" type conversations.
In my experience, on pro sessions this player/producer relationship so rarely feels dictatorial, but rather collaborative.... collaborating with folks that are at the top of their game. So it's far less about getting "my way" - and far more about holding up my position on the team.... as we collectively put something together that sounds way better than where we started with it.
dcrigger
Senior Member
To be clear - historically there is - and never has been - even one iota of mystery regarding this. Absolute standard practice at the time. Literally no one would have expected that Karen played on this records. Except maybe the 10-12 year old members of their fan club.
Think about it this way - why would Jack Daugherty (their first producer) or later, Richard Carpenter hire Cubby (great guy, fine player), who had never played on a single hit record to play on these records that they were hoping to hits???? Without even discussing the fact that Cubby wasn't part of their scene, until they put a touring band together to promote their hits.... But even if he had been.... they still would've hired Hal. Because they weren't doing a tour.... they were making hit records....
Again there is no mystery here.... at all.
Push pull stroke
Platinum Member
Recording is a somewhat different skill set than playing live. I don’t know how much of a show Hal could put on while playing. It’s impressive that he could switch styles seamlessly, though. Being a musical chameleon is not easy.
Son of Vistalite Black
Well-known Member
In a clear instance of what I'll call syncronicity, Yahoo! Entertainment recently published an appreciation of Karen Carpenter's drumming featuring lengthy input from Sheila E and Cindy Blackman Santana.
The headline, quoting Blackman Santana, is "Sheila E., Cindy Blackman Santana on the late Karen Carpenter's oft-forgotten legacy: 'Her drumming was not given more attention — the attention it deserved'"
,
www.yahoo.com
The headline, quoting Blackman Santana, is "Sheila E., Cindy Blackman Santana on the late Karen Carpenter's oft-forgotten legacy: 'Her drumming was not given more attention — the attention it deserved'"
,
Sheila E., Cindy Blackman Santana on the late Karen Carpenter's oft-forgotten legacy: 'Her drumming was not given more attention — the attention it deserved'
Karen has been hailed as one of the greatest vocalists of all time, but the drums were her first passion, and she always considered herself a “drummer who sang.”
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GetAgrippa
Diamond Member
I wonder how much the recording studios were close minded and just use to working with Hal and crew for “the sound” they were looking for in recordings since replaced a lot of drummers and musicians in recordings?
JimmyM
Diamond Member
I don’t know, but I do know that the primary movers in music either played their own music or they hired studio musicians with an actual affinity for the music they were playing, and it wasn’t just a paycheck where they would all gather for drinks afterwards and goof on the acts because they were “serious jazz musicians.”