Hal Blaine

I wonder how much the recording studios were close minded and just use to working with Hal and crew for “the sound” they were looking for in recordings since replaced a lot of drummers and musicians in recordings?

This.

I mean come on - how hard is it to cut a track backing The Carpenters. We're not talking about backing Miles Davis, Dizzy, Duke, or The Count lol.

It was the studio bringing in Hal just for that reason - cause that's the studio drummer in LA you brought in. Not because Karen lacked chops. You don't need extraordinary chops to back The Carpenters. She sings on a track. Hal plays drums on a track. It's commercial studio work.
 
This.

I mean come on - how hard is it to cut a track backing The Carpenters. We're not talking about backing Miles Davis, Dizzy, Duke, or The Count lol.

It was the studio bringing in Hal just for that reason - cause that's the studio drummer in LA you brought in. Not because Karen lacked chops. You don't need extraordinary chops to back The Carpenters. She sings on a track. Hal plays drums on a track. It's commercial studio work.
Wow. Talk about missing the point.
 
Wow. Talk about missing the point.

You did miss the point, or else not reading for comprehension, Multijd. I was responding to GetAgrippa who said "I wonder how much the recording studios were closed minded and just used to working with Hal and crew for “the sound” they were looking for in recordings since they replaced a lot of drummers and musicians in recordings?"

I'm agreeing with GetAgrippa's point; the jest of which is using Hal had nothing to do with Karen Carpenter's ability as a drummer.

It was you, Mut, who missed my point and GetAgrippa's point.

Hope this clarifies it for ya.
 
Speaking for myself, I prefer to not look at some thing as being easier or more difficult. Situations require different skill sets, some of which are more demanding, others are demanding in ways that may not appear to be so.

Is playing like Eric Harland more difficult than playing like Levon Helm? Or a guy from a hair band on a casino legacy tour of 80's bands ? I suppose it depends how you look at it, right?
 
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And yet, while those reasons can be a factor - the overriding #1 reason for using a top flight studio musician is the far greater likelihood of creating a hit record.
Time is money - yet top tier studio players aren't cheap. And often the player in the band already knows the material backwards and forwards.

But the fact is - most of the time, these top level players simply sound that much better. Their pocket is deeper. The sound coming off their drums sounds better on playback. Their musical sensibilities are just so fined tuned as to what will making "work" versus "work not so much".
Making great records is not like manufacturing or building houses - you just don't plug in drummer A in replace of drummer B - like you can master carpenters - and expect to get anything close to the same results.

And that comparison presumes swapping between this top level pro and another one. Swapping a Hal Blaine master level studio musician for a good competent professional drummer (like me) is a huge gamble, Sure, I might be able to cut a great record - but back in the day, Hal accomplished that daily.... day in and day out.

I had the privilege of hearing Hal do a session (later on, when he was doing less records and more commercials) - and I have to say, he really was THAT good.

All of this is true! I think another thing to add is that great studios have their preferred musicians, and they work well together, and I wouldn't want to interrupt that flow. If I was invited to play there, I'd rather a real pro do it. I know for me personally, I'm playing with a guy who does all of his recordings at an outstanding studio in Nashville with top-tier musicians (name dropping is tacky, so I won't). I'm actually glad he does this because then I learn the parts that this pro drummer lays down. While 90% of it is the exact same thing I would play, I really like learning his fills and patterns. It's that extra little 10% that he does that makes me better, and I'd rather be a better drummer than say, "Hey, I played on this album!"
 
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You did miss the point, or else not reading for comprehension, Multijd. I was responding to GetAgrippa who said "I wonder how much the recording studios were closed minded and just used to working with Hal and crew for “the sound” they were looking for in recordings since they replaced a lot of drummers and musicians in recordings?"

I'm agreeing with GetAgrippa's point; the jest of which is using Hal had nothing to do with Karen Carpenter's ability as a drummer.

It was you, Mut, who missed my point and GetAgrippa's point.

Hope this clarifies it for ya.
You did miss the point, or else not reading for comprehension, Multijd. I was responding to GetAgrippa who said "I wonder how much the recording studios were closed minded and just used to working with Hal and crew for “the sound” they were looking for in recordings since they replaced a lot of drummers and musicians in recordings?"

I'm agreeing with GetAgrippa's point; the jest of which is using Hal had nothing to do with Karen Carpenter's ability as a drummer.

It was you, Mut, who missed my point and GetAgrippa's point.

Hope this clarifies it for ya.
I think cutting a track for the Carpenters was actually NOT a very easy thing to do. Which is why I think you missed the point but maybe I’m misunderstanding here. Isn’t the entire point of this thread (or at least where it has evolved to) that there was a level of difficulty in that music that was beyond Karen’s studio drumming capabilities. That’s the way I’m reading this and the view I agree with. I don’t believe that there is inherently more difficulty in recording for Miles or whomever. It depends on the skill of the player. Recording with Miles could be difficult for one musician and easier for another depending on their abilities and experiences. Hal Blaine’s abilities made it fairly easy for him to record those tracks but difficult for Karen. That’s the point I’m referring too.
 
It really doesn’t matter how easy or difficult the parts are. You either have the feel for it or you don’t. Karen was obviously a drummer trained on marching and Buddy Rich. Hal was trained on that and pop/rock/soul of the day, which Karen wasn’t. Could she learn it? Absolutely. But in that clip of her playing Dancing In The Streets, it was obvious it wasn’t going to happen in the near term.
 
So here's my question about the legendary Hal Blaine. I have read that he sadly died broke. If true how did/does that happen? I never heard he had any kind of substance abuse problems and he probably didn't get a lot of royalties. But come on this guy is probably the most prolific session drummer in music history.

Though I will say that many pro musicians do wind up with little at the end. I'd think we'd be surprised at some of the big names who wound up with little financially in later years.
 
So here's my question about the legendary Hal Blaine. I have read that he sadly died broke. If true how did/does that happen? I never heard he had any kind of substance abuse problems and he probably didn't get a lot of royalties. But come on this guy is probably the most prolific session drummer in music history.

Though I will say that many pro musicians do wind up with little at the end. I'd think we'd be surprised at some of the big names who wound up with little financially in later years.
Tammy Wynette described it best: D-I-V-O-R-C-E.

"When drum machines became more prominent in the studio, Blaine finally became obsolete. For a period, there was no real need for a drummer to guide the sound of a session anymore, not when a machine could be trained to create the same sounds. Blaine was forced to retire from performing. After a divorce in the late '80s, Blaine lost many of his possessions. He had to sell a home in the Hollywood Hills, as well as over 100 gold and platinum records. He worked as a security guard in Arizona for a time, before fading further into obscurity."

 
Tammy Wynette described it best: D-I-V-O-R-C-E.

"When drum machines became more prominent in the studio, Blaine finally became obsolete. For a period, there was no real need for a drummer to guide the sound of a session anymore, not when a machine could be trained to create the same sounds. Blaine was forced to retire from performing. After a divorce in the late '80s, Blaine lost many of his possessions. He had to sell a home in the Hollywood Hills, as well as over 100 gold and platinum records. He worked as a security guard in Arizona for a time, before fading further into obscurity."

Thanks. That's sad man. It sounds like he was caught in some kind of bad in-between time in regard to drum machines and today's cyber world as well as you mentioned drummers regaining their rightful place in the music world. And of course the divorce. Eventually time wins out for all of us.
 
Many yeeears ago I received a hand written letter from Hal gently advising me to not be so concerned about equiptment and take the bull by the horns with what I had and be the best I could be. This is a highly condensed reply but I was honored that the man himself gave me some heart felt advice. Funny..to this day I'm way over concerned about elusive sound.
 
Never assume accomplishment in any industry will provide for you as you age....
ability <> $
Cutthroat business acumen paired with the ability to spin it in a way that does not expose your predatory ways = $.(with exceptions for the lucky)

Start saving/investing now and don't touch it until you retire. Seek counsel of a financial expert for designing your retirement. This is as important as proper healthcare as healthcare does not really exist in the U.S. without $ beyond Medicare.
 
Many yeeears ago I received a hand written letter from Hal gently advising me to not be so concerned about equiptment and take the bull by the horns with what I had and be the best I could be. This is a highly condensed reply but I was honored that the man himself gave me some heart felt advice. Funny..to this day I'm way over concerned about elusive sound.
Awesome 👍

Check out the Buddy thread. I just posted a quote by Peter Erskine talking about Buddy playing his (Erskine's) kit.
 
Never assume accomplishment in any industry will provide for you as you age....
ability <> $
Cutthroat business acumen paired with the ability to spin it in a way that does not expose your predatory ways = $.(with exceptions for the lucky)

Start saving/investing now and don't touch it until you retire. Seek counsel of a financial expert for designing your retirement. This is as important as proper healthcare as healthcare does not really exist in the U.S. without $ beyond Medicare.
Good advice. My father didn't have a lot of formal education but when I started working he took me aside and he said from here on come hell or high water you take something every week and I don't care if it's just $5 and you put it away for the long haul. It's not complicated stuff.
 
So here's my question about the legendary Hal Blaine. I have read that he sadly died broke. If true how did/does that happen? I never heard he had any kind of substance abuse problems and he probably didn't get a lot of royalties. But come on this guy is probably the most prolific session drummer in music history.

Though I will say that many pro musicians do wind up with little at the end. I'd think we'd be surprised at some of the big names who wound up with little financially in later years.
OK - maybe I can shed some light on the financial realities of being a studio musician - at least in LA over the past 40-50 years... Studio players are generally (99.99999% of the time) hired guns... they are not profit participants. They are pay a flat fee... per hour, pre day, per song or per album... negotiated in front and that pay happens regardless of whether a recording is a hit, or a flop, or whether it is ever even released.

By contrast, a member of a band will likely be a profit-participant - a co-owner of the project. They aren't working for someone, they are working for themselves - and thus, to a great degree, make little or know money unless the project generates a profit.

So studio musician #1 could play on 10 tracks for say $500 each and they could all be flops and he would've still made $5000 total. On the other hand, studio musician #2 could play on a different 10 tracks for $500 per and they could each, everyone of them earn Gold Records and that player would still make.... $5000 total.

So with the money being the same fr a hit or a flop, what does playing on a hit gain for a player. Two things. First, artists want to hire players that have played on hits - primarily because they have proven that they are able to go beyond just playing the right notes, with a good feel and do something that is all of that plus a special little bit more. And the more people that want to hire you, the more sessions you get called for. And more sessions add up to more money. Second - the more a player is in demand the more than can charge for a session (song, day, hour, album, etc.). If the basic going rate - or non scale where applicable - is $500. Then an in demand player might be able to charge double that - double scale, The AAA top tier guys can even charge triple. Or again whether they can negotiate - whatever the market will bear.

Simple put - playing on hit paves the way for more work and the opportunity to charge more for that work.

But that hit itself only pays what was originally charged. Back in the 60's -70's, I would venture that Hal probably made in the neighborhood of $150 to play on Good Vibrations. $200-$250 to play on Close To You. Or in today's dollars, $1000 each. Maybe $2k.

The point is - back then, just like now - the reality is as a studio musician, you are only making money while you are working. And working requires being in demand - and nobody stays in demand forever. Probably in any field - but absolutely one as trendy and fad-ridden as music.

And so for any musician to come out at the end of their career requires financial discipline - and none more so than music, where there are no pensions to speak of, and every player to the greatest degree is not an employee, but a self-employed, independent contractor. Not only needing to plan for retirement - but also figure out the ups and downs that are par for the course along the way. I've had years where my income doubled from one year to the next - maybe a string of tours, or a number of album projects happen one after another. The pitfall during those high income periods is believing that they are for sure going to last - which might happen, but also might not. Players get in all kinds of trouble notching their lifestyle expenses up prematurely. Only to have the next year come up with no tours, no albums, just a sampling of wedding gigs.

I didn't know Hal well enough to comment on his situation - just pointing out that playing on a bazillion hits in no ways insures lifelong wealth.
 
OK - maybe I can shed some light on the financial realities of being a studio musician - at least in LA over the past 40-50 years... Studio players are generally (99.99999% of the time) hired guns... they are not profit participants. They are pay a flat fee... per hour, pre day, per song or per album... negotiated in front and that pay happens regardless of whether a recording is a hit, or a flop, or whether it is ever even released.

By contrast, a member of a band will likely be a profit-participant - a co-owner of the project. They aren't working for someone, they are working for themselves - and thus, to a great degree, make little or know money unless the project generates a profit.

So studio musician #1 could play on 10 tracks for say $500 each and they could all be flops and he would've still made $5000 total. On the other hand, studio musician #2 could play on a different 10 tracks for $500 per and they could each, everyone of them earn Gold Records and that player would still make.... $5000 total.

So with the money being the same fr a hit or a flop, what does playing on a hit gain for a player. Two things. First, artists want to hire players that have played on hits - primarily because they have proven that they are able to go beyond just playing the right notes, with a good feel and do something that is all of that plus a special little bit more. And the more people that want to hire you, the more sessions you get called for. And more sessions add up to more money. Second - the more a player is in demand the more than can charge for a session (song, day, hour, album, etc.). If the basic going rate - or non scale where applicable - is $500. Then an in demand player might be able to charge double that - double scale, The AAA top tier guys can even charge triple. Or again whether they can negotiate - whatever the market will bear.

Simple put - playing on hit paves the way for more work and the opportunity to charge more for that work.

But that hit itself only pays what was originally charged. Back in the 60's -70's, I would venture that Hal probably made in the neighborhood of $150 to play on Good Vibrations. $200-$250 to play on Close To You. Or in today's dollars, $1000 each. Maybe $2k.

The point is - back then, just like now - the reality is as a studio musician, you are only making money while you are working. And working requires being in demand - and nobody stays in demand forever. Probably in any field - but absolutely one as trendy and fad-ridden as music.

And so for any musician to come out at the end of their career requires financial discipline - and none more so than music, where there are no pensions to speak of, and every player to the greatest degree is not an employee, but a self-employed, independent contractor. Not only needing to plan for retirement - but also figure out the ups and downs that are par for the course along the way. I've had years where my income doubled from one year to the next - maybe a string of tours, or a number of album projects happen one after another. The pitfall during those high income periods is believing that they are for sure going to last - which might happen, but also might not. Players get in all kinds of trouble notching their lifestyle expenses up prematurely. Only to have the next year come up with no tours, no albums, just a sampling of wedding gigs.

I didn't know Hal well enough to comment on his situation - just pointing out that playing on a bazillion hits in no ways insures lifelong wealth.
Hey thanks that's a great breakdown. It's kinda sorta how I figured it went. And I'm thinking it was more your explanation of the business and how he handled his money than the divorce - that's not a judgement call on Hal BTW. But tons of people get divorced and though it may be financially tough for a stretch generally it doesn't devistate them financially forever, at least the ones I've known.
 
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