Endorsement deals: Vinnie no longer with Ludwig?

tamadrm

Platinum Member
I agree with the sound observation. None of the LUDWIG kits I've heard him play do anything for me in the sound dept, can't say its despicable, just not inspiring and certainly not as good sounding as the GRETSCH kits he's played over the years. The way he tunes and plays does have something to do with it.

By comparison you'd have to work hard at getting a GRETSCH kit to sound off, or at least Vinnie would have to work hard at it, put effort into it. Consistency and ease of getting a good sound, not a lot of drums have that sonic attribute.

I can see Vinnie going to DW, look at the emphasis J Good puts on working hand in hand w/artists, Im sure he'd love to have Vinnie on board. DW is supporting A list drummers like those drummers envision being supported. The DW door opens wide to someone like Colaiuta, hard not to want to be a part of that.
Having actually played Ludwig Classic Maples,Keystones , Legacy kits as well as vintage Super Classics with seamless Acrolite,Black Beautys and Supraphonics,I can say without fear of contradiction the they all sounded,played and looked great.

Thousands of drummers will agree with that assessment.

Your comments concerning Ludwig drums are partisan and bias.I've had the complete opposite experience both personally(since the 60's) and having actually heard Vinny play his Ludwig kit.

Steve B
 
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Bo Eder

Platinum Member
If you reference the points in my previous post, they are the company that put (by far) the greatest emphasis on marketing & general presence. Difficult to resist really.
Even the idea that a certain company picks up a bunch of artists or has a big strong presence out there in public is sorta' moot, since historically, almost ALL of the big name drum companies experienced the phenomenon. Remember back in the 50s every jazz drummer played Gretsch, then Slingerland and Rogers had a big roster too. Ludwig had the big artists with them from time-to-time throughout their history too. Then in the 80s you couldn't not see a band without Yamahas or Tamas...and that's just naming a few. Pearl, Premiere, Sonor also had their fair share of big names.
 
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XplosiveDrummer

Guest
Like a gretsch set on a really bad day.
The door to this is 100' wide by 100' tall, though unlike quite a few members here and sadly a highly regarded member here, I won't walk through and go to their level of unprofessionalism and ignorance and make a joke like they do and have about another company in a current thread. Pathetic to be quite honest.
 

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
Even the idea that a certain company picks up a bunch of artists or has a big strong presence out there in public is sorta' moot, since historically, almost ALL of the big name drum companies experienced the phenomenon. Remember back in the 50s every jazz drummer played Gretsch, then Slingerland and Rogers had a big roster too. Ludwig had the big artists with them from time-to-time throughout their history too. Then in the 80s you couldn't not see a band without Yamahas or Tamas...and that's just naming a few. Pearl, Premiere, Sonor also had their fair share of big names.
Agreed Bo, nothing new, it's just that DW are the ones at the top of the marketing stack right now. Quite typical when you have someone who's passionate about their company. There's an extra drive that enables greater risk taking, & a longer view.

The door to this is 100' wide by 100' tall, though unlike quite a few members here and sadly a highly regarded member here, I won't walk through and go to their level of unprofessionalism and ignorance and make a joke like they do and have about another company in a current thread. Pathetic to be quite honest.
I guess that's me in the mix then :(
 

dmacc_2

Well-known member
Les, it takes no more or less effort to make a Gretsch kit sound 'off' than it does with any other equivalent kit. Gretsch make superb drums but it's very easy to make them sound terrible - don't tune them.
...
You beat me to it Duncan.

I'm a Gretsch fan but can tell you I've heard terrible sounding drums from every manufacturer up to and including Gretsch. All these companies make great stuff but serves little to no value if you don't know what to do with them. I'd almost be willing to go one step further and say to many people's ears, that "Great Gretsch Sound" is not so "great". All opinion.
 

tamadrm

Platinum Member
Les, it takes no more or less effort to make a Gretsch kit sound 'off' than it does with any other equivalent kit. Gretsch make superb drums but it's very easy to make them sound terrible - don't tune them.

You're very partisan here and it's not productive.

Do you have an allegiance with Gretsch? In the years you've been here I've never seen you post your kit once.
Well said Duncan.Any kit can sound bad when not tuned properly.It dosen't matter who made the drums.I've seen more that a few vids of Buddy playing both Slingerland and Ludwig kits that just sounded terrible.

Buddy by his own admission said that he didn't tune drums,but he tensioned them.He also said that you really can't tune drums........?

What can I say.......the guy could play like tomorrow was only a rumor,but he like others, are just too opinionated and inflexible.

Life is all about living and learning........don't you think?:)

Steve B
 
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XplosiveDrummer

Guest
I guess that's me in the mix then :(
Sadly, it is. Seems with your latest posts, they're direct jabs toward Mapex possibly in spite of my thoughts about the whole "inside joke" thing. I personally would expect more from a grown business man who makes drums himself and probably wouldn't like his companies name dragged through the mud like you continue to do with said company. I'm sure you and all your dearest friends on here are whispering to one another in PM's deciding if I'm that guy Sticks or who ever because of how I feel about such actions about a company but I'm not. I just don't find it funny and I don't care what badge it is. Only thing I own of Mapex is a double thick, double braced throne with an awesome heavy duty memory lock that I got new and for free and is an incredible seat IMO. Much better than the memory lock on my DW snare stand or PDP hi hat.

Though hey, you're an adult and can do what you want and say what you want and I have the right to defend an innocent bystander who seems to make great products when their name gets dragged through the mud because of some idiotic inside joke brought on because some guy got to you all. Good day to you sir.
 
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The Old Hyde

Guest
Explosive, that former member sticks, had some strange vendetta against guru drums and would constantly call them out. he started the battle for whatever reason and wouldn't let it go. Andy doesn't need defending from me on this, I just see you are a new member so you probably were not here when all of that went down. it is just a joke by the way.
 

Bo Eder

Platinum Member
Sadly, it is. Seems with your latest posts, they're direct jabs toward Mapex possibly in spite of my thoughts about the whole "inside joke" thing. I personally would expect more from a grown business man who makes drums himself and probably wouldn't like his companies name dragged through the mud like you continue to do with said company. I'm sure you and all your dearest friends on here are whispering to one another in PM's deciding if I'm that guy Sticks or who ever because of how I feel about such actions about a company but I'm not. I just don't find it funny and I don't care what badge it is. Only thing I own of Mapex is a double thick, double braced throne with an awesome heavy duty memory lock that I got new and for free and is an incredible seat IMO. Much better than the memory lock on my DW snare stand or PDP hi hat.

Though hey, you're an adult and can do what you want and say what you want and I have the right to defend an innocent bystander who seems to make great products when their name gets dragged through the mud because of some idiotic inside joke brought on because some guy got to you all. Good day to you sir.
Oh come on now, lighten up. I'm one of those that perpetuate the 'inside joke' and I just found that entire situation amusing. There's not a whole lot of PM'ing going on here if you think there's some kind of clique - we just say it outright. Perhaps you had a bad experience on another forum and maybe they did stuff like that, but honestly, who has the time? I'm not gonna start a thread or make a statement, and then PM others about what I think it means or who I'm poking fun at. Where's the fun in that?
 
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XplosiveDrummer

Guest
Explosive, that former member sticks, had some strange vendetta against guru drums and would constantly call them out. he started the battle for whatever reason and wouldn't let it go. Andy doesn't need defending from me on this, I just see you are a new member so you probably were not here when all of that went down. it is just a joke by the way.
That's unfortunate to say the least Hyde but that doesn't explain how it makes any sense to drag Mapex through the mud at every chance because of some guy's detrimental actions toward his companies name. Or why others feel the need or feel it's right to do the same. It's not Mapex's fault that some guy went off the deep end over the love of his favorite series of drums but because of that and it seems the only way to "get back at said person" was that a very needless joke has been made up and has spread like wildfire through dry brush for no reason at all.

I try to be a man of principles, morals etc and to me the principle of it, whether it's because of some random guy or not, is the same. What if every time you visited your favorite motorcycle forum, someone or many constantly made wise cracks about your favorite manufacturer. As I see you have a bike in your avatar and mentioned being a rider. And I mean almost every day or seeing it brought up at least once in every thread about said manufacturer or not. Knowing if just the name is mentioned you're guaranteed to see said annoying wise crack. Would the ignorance and immaturity of it not get tiresome?

Anyway, it's just how I feel on the situation. If I owned a business and to know my companies name is the butt end of a joke on one of if not the most popular drummer forums on the net because certain people can't look past the idiocy of a past member, it just wouldn't sit well with me. That's all. And personally I don't like seeing it. I don't think it's right nor fair so I give my opinion when it's said. If that makes me an outsider looking in, to not only the senior members but everyone else as well, so be it.
 
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XplosiveDrummer

Guest
There's not a whole lot of PM'ing going on here if you think there's some kind of clique - we just say it outright.
Bo,

I didn't say there was a clique. Though I've seen posts back n forth from some when any time someone defended Mapex or so help me God dare I say it, Saturns they think it's "Sticks" returning for a fight or to defend the name. See how hung up on this guy you all are? I dunno, maybe this guy did do one hell of a job here lol but that's just too much. Maybe you all need counseling because of this guy lol! :p :)
 

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
Sadly, it is. Seems with your latest posts, they're direct jabs toward Mapex possibly in spite of my thoughts about the whole "inside joke" thing. I personally would expect more from a grown business man who makes drums himself and probably wouldn't like his companies name dragged through the mud like you continue to do with said company. I'm sure you and all your dearest friends on here are whispering to one another in PM's deciding if I'm that guy Sticks or who ever because of how I feel about such actions about a company but I'm not. I just don't find it funny and I don't care what badge it is. Only thing I own of Mapex is a double thick, double braced throne with an awesome heavy duty memory lock that I got new and for free and is an incredible seat IMO. Much better than the memory lock on my DW snare stand or PDP hi hat.

Though hey, you're an adult and can do what you want and say what you want and I have the right to defend an innocent bystander who seems to make great products when their name gets dragged through the mud because of some idiotic inside joke brought on because some guy got to you all. Good day to you sir.
What I find deeply disappointing is that you're clearly personally annoyed with me, or my stance, & believe for one minute that my comments are anything other than a joke, & accepted by many as such. Hell, I just spent the weekend with Ben who plays Mapex Saturns. Moreover, you seem to completely disregard the numerous posts where I've both applauded the sonic virtues of some Mapex products, & even recommended them as a first choice. I'm bashed all the time, but in a way that I can instantly tell it's a joke. I accept it as such, just as everyone here knows that any mention of Mapex badge size is a joke. The reason that became a joke was the incredible defence of any Mapex critique by said previous member. I'm even more perplexed as to why you would choose to introduce your frustration in this thread, where there has been no mention of Mapex. Your final line of "good day to you sir" is a strong indication of your disgust at my actions, that's fine, but calling me unprofessional, pathetic, & ignorant is a fairly robust stance against someone you know little of.

There's no back door PMs here in the clique way you're inferring. I can think of only one previous member here who used PMs as a very personal & hateful means of stirring the pot. On the subject of PMs, if you are sufficiently disgusted with my actions as to post them in an unrelated thread, I would expect such frustrations or disapproval to be taken by PM as a first call. That's their purpose. If there's an outward perception of a clique, I can only return with the explanation of a very wide group of people who get on - nothing more than that. Unlike you, I'm not going to jump to conclusions about you based on one post, or one subject.

So there's my part response, but here's the part of my response where I agree with you. I sometimes struggle with representing Andy the drummer & forum member, juxtaposition with Andy the drum company owner. I was a member here well before I had any involvement with Guru drums. Andy the drummer likes to joke with other forum members, just like anyone else. Sometimes, & especially in circumstances were members are not fully acquainted with the context, that crosses boundries that should always be observed by someone in a commercially partisan position. As this is clearly the case here, I apologise, & I take your reaction as a serious warning shot that I should heed. As a footnote though, those who care to read my posts, will find that I give honest non partisan advice on all manner of drum related subjects, & across all brands + constructions. Those who know me in the business will tell you the same thing. I'm not a drum snob, nor am I dismissive of instruments at any price range, unless crazy claims are made about their virtues, then I'll call them out like anyone else.

If I've upset you personally, I apologise. If I've given anyone the impression that Mapex are anything other than a worthy participant in the market, I apologise.
 

Pocket-full-of-gold

Platinum Member
but that doesn't explain how it makes any sense to drag Mapex through the mud at every chance............
Because. It's. A. Joke.

Nothing more, nothing less. Something that the folk of Drummerworld have grabbed hold of and are running with. Don't take life on a drum forum so bloody seriously mate.

...........someone or many constantly made wise cracks about your favorite manufacturer.
So you've paid no attention to this thread then? Or any other Ludwig thread. For as much love as they get here, there is also many who show them as much favour as a bastard red haired step-child. Les, constantly craps on them from a great height. So do many many others (slumwig?!?!).....I have no problem with "my favourite manufacturer" copping stick. I find it as funny as the running Mapex badge barbs. Les' anti-Ludwig sentiments can be particularly hilarious.

Lighten up mate. Smile once in a while. It really ain't as bad as you're making it out to be.
 
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radman

Senior Member
Maybe I'm a bit cynical towards the endorsement thing, but I'm not really sure I care what Vinnie plays ... as long as he keeps playing! I saw him this summer with Sting and he was awesome (and his kit sounded great!).

What he hears and what I hear live or in the studio are likely very different things. And all pro drums can be made to sound very, very good (or very bad too, I guess). Whatever issue or motivation he has to sign or leave a company are likely reasons of no concern to little ole me.

And about the Saturns, Andy, etc. It is a joke ... perhaps it was taken too far, but still a joke. Several long term members own and love them. And Andy is a straight up guy from what I've seen ... one of the more balanced guys here in areas of discussion.

There is also a running joke about capes ... and I've never taken offense, despite my large assortment of capes in my wardrobe. ;-)

Happy Friday all!
radman
 
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XplosiveDrummer

Guest
What I find deeply disappointing is that you're clearly personally annoyed with me, or my stance, & believe for one minute that my comments are anything other than a joke, & accepted by many as such.
Andy,

If I may call you by your first name, I guess my view upon this situation was a bit too serious I suppose, so I apologize as well and you were the last person I wanted to have a bad interaction with as I love discussing drum craftsmanship with you, as well as reading about it from you. I also thank you for the time taken to explain a bit more of the context behind your approach to it all and a bit about yourself. I don't dislike you on a personal level, I just disliked the seemingly obvious, needless and unprofessional jabs toward a company that doesn't deserve it, which I see now for the most part was harmless fun. My introduction of my frustration over the constant battering of said company was when I seen the opportunity to take a jab at Gretsch in this thread but instead felt it was in bad taste to do so. And yes with that I made a subtle hint toward the extreme amount of Mapex jokes in one of your London Meet Up threads and made an example of it. Which I see, considering your explanation on things, may not of been proper either. Which is why I feel these running jokes lead to no good sometimes. I really don't want to be looked down upon here or have any bad blood and don't want this situation to become personal when it seems that it's all in good fun but considering the consistent jabs taken about Mapex it was easy to perceive otherwise.

Honestly a joke here and there wouldn't raise any red flags but seeing the absolute onslaught of jabs taken every time that name is brought up leads to easy speculation of the situation, especially when you put two and two together regarding the history with that past member. It's like at first it's funny when you see it here and there, then you see it more and think ok it's a little inside joke and then after seeing it every time that name is brought up it just didn't seem right and came off as bashing a product as well as because of some dude that went too far with you all while showing pride for his choice of drums. It's so bad and so often and if one didn't know any better, it would make me cringe to think to share my set of Mapex drums on this forum in fear of my thread filling up with needless remarks about badges, if I had a Mapex set of course.

So anyway, with that I apologize for letting my speculation go farther than it should have and would just like to move on from this. I gave my opinion on it and the situation has been explained.

Arky,

Yes I recall the post although it wasn't personal and was more so in general toward the idea within the post that was made.

Gold,

I'm not replying about any of it anymore. I explained my reasoning as to why I said what I said about it all, I gave my thoughts, it's been explained and I just want to move on.

Cheers.
 

bermuda

Drummerworld Pro Drummer - Administrator
Staff member
Vinnie called me, he wants his thread back. I said "Hey, Vin, we're not on the same team since you left Ludwig, I don't know if I should be helping you or not." He said "C'mon Jon, we go way back, do me a solid." "Oh, alright, I always did like that little fill on Bamboozled By Love..."

So with due respect to Vinnie, let's get back on topic here.

Bermuda
 

Pocket-full-of-gold

Platinum Member
So with due respect to Vinnie, let's get back on topic here.
I know a sure fire way for this thread to get back on topic.

Now if we only knew someone on the inside.....someone who knew the story.....someone who was privy to info the rest of us don't have......someone who was prepared to spill the beans and give us the skinny.......someone who'll step up and share all the rumour, innuendo and scuttlebutt.

Yep, that'd be sure to get Vinnie up front where he belongs again.

Alas...........
 
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The Old Hyde

Guest
I try to be a man of principles, morals etc and to me the principle of it, whether it's because of some random guy or not, is the same. What if every time you visited your favorite motorcycle forum, someone or many constantly made wise cracks about your favorite manufacturer. As I see you have a bike in your avatar and mentioned being a rider. And I mean almost every day or seeing it brought up at least once in every thread about said manufacturer or not. Knowing if just the name is mentioned you're guaranteed to see said annoying wise crack. Would the ignorance and immaturity of it not get tiresome?

.
that makes perfect sense when you put it that way. I totally agree and understand what you mean. yes, i would hate to hear all the time how my bike brand " was the worst, ugliest, slowest" whatever. even as a running joke, it would get old quick and start to hurt. i dont think anyone ever said saturns were bad, quite opposite, just the badges were a hot point for sticks and that became the joke and if i were him it would have gotten old quick. i didnt think of it like that before affecting me but i get it now.

sorry to keep dragging the thread down, i jumped ahead to post a reply. just got back online after work, soccer for the kids, making dinner...and soon I hope a beer!
 

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
every time that name is brought up it just didn't seem right and came off as bashing a product as well as because of some dude that went too far with you all while showing pride for his choice of drums.
Never bashing the product. If you look across all the comments made, they're only ever referring to badge size (& that's fairly irrelevant in terms of product quality), or a particular line's apparently unlimited abilities (& that's a direct exaggerated reference to said ex member's product performance claims). In the round, I'd say Mapex got a fair amount of positive exposure by default. Many take the piss out of Guru too. Reference to adding wraps to the shells, etc. All taken with a big pinch of salt. I agree though, it's run it's course.

BTW, that "dude" went way way beyond just showing pride for his drums. Nasty & hurtful are mild terms to describe some of his behaviour, especially via PMs. Anyhow, that's all in the past, & consigned to forum history just as other subjects involving seat belts & milk.

I said I wouldn't judge you based on one post or one stance. I mean that, & thank you for your reply.

Subject done as far as I'm concerned, except for Rad's capes (& Ben's cloaks) of course ;)

So with due respect to Vinnie, let's get back on topic here.

Bermuda
Sorry Jon - agreed, so when are you going to confirm Vinnie's move to CB then? ;)

Alas...........
You missed the letter T out, you sensitive soul you. May you forever bathe in the sonic miracle that is Silver Sealer. There - just making sure I upset everyone equally ;)


On Topic - Sakae seem to be on the signing trail. Certainly, the industry buzz at LDS was their approaches to a number of artists. Decisions still to be announced apparently. Those artists discussed last week didn't include Vinnie, but did include a good few names currently with other manufacturers. Watch this space eh!
 
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