what's the difference between the Groove and the Pocket?

For the life of me, those terms seem to be used much like...groovey...or...cool...depends on who you talk to.

Primarily used to get posters engaged in fighting for their opinion.
 
I think the groove is the basic pattern - shuffles, swings, rock 8's, NOLA second line (clave/ Bo Diddley), or various Latin grooves.

The pocket is how well you lay down the groove and stay locked in with other players, especially the bass. I think "pocket" is most applicable to shuffles, swings, and NOLA. I got a compliment a few weeks ago at an open jam about how well I played in "the pocket."
 
Groove is feel, pocket is tightness with the other players.

Nice to have both, but music can work well with just one. If the music moves you, then it's done right.
 
MY opinion is that if the drumming works for the music (not too much, not too little, not too slow and not too fast) then you can call it what you want (Groove, pocket or whatever) but if it works then the label is irrelevant.
To me there is no difference between groove and pocket based on the above. To others it may be a way to say that you can groove while NOT being in the pocket... Which I guess is possible but it will start to get into the not working as well for the music.
To me groove should encompass the whole band or at least the majority of the band, a single musician grooving while the rest of the band is not doesn't work well for me unless it's designed that way on purpose. (And when done it usually is only done on short bursts and not during an entire piece)...

I believe that for a drummer, groove can be both groove and pocket since the drummer is keeping the tempo.
Take for example Madonna's Papa Don't Preach.

Very simple drum pattern (a la Billie Jean) with some accents splashed here and there.

The groove IS the simple drum pattern enhanced by the keyboard. The pocket is what the OTHER musicians have to be in in order for that groove to work. The only time the drummer goes out is when doing some rolls but then his pocket shows when he gets back to the original groove seamlessly.
 
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bermuda said:
Groove is feel, pocket is tightness with the other players.

Nice to have both, but music can work well with just one. If the music moves you, then it's done right.
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This.

I think "pocket" relates to how you play with others. Your beat placement...

You can "groove" by yourself all day long. It's hard to have pocket with yourself.
 
To me a band being in the groove/pocket is about a song moving effortlessly. Like no one feels like they're leading or following. In total synch. Locked.
 
Well, there is a groove, which is tangible, and then there's to groove, which is more abstract.

The pocket, well . . . . .

matrix.jpg
 
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Rattlin' Bones said:
I think the groove is the basic pattern - shuffles, swings, rock 8's, NOLA second line (clave/ Bo Diddley), or various Latin grooves.

The pocket is how well you lay down the groove and stay locked in with other players, especially the bass.
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This. All day.
 
bermuda said:
Groove is feel, pocket is tightness with the other players.

Nice to have both, but music can work well with just one. If the music moves you, then it's done right.
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Thank you, Bermuda!

I tried for the life of me to explain this to a bass player I didn't get along with. He was SURE both were interchangeable and nothing I said mattered.
As we were a cover band, I was more of a pocket player that kept the songs solid. I clearly had groove as I kept the bodies moving on the floor.
 
bermuda said:
Groove is feel, pocket is tightness with the other players.

Nice to have both, but music can work well with just one. If the music moves you, then it's done right.
Click to expand...
What he said! 🥁
 
to me, the groove is the beat you are playing, combined with the other rhythm section members

the pocket is the definition of rhythmic space that the groove/style calls for, and how everyone is interpreting, and living in that space

a single player can have great "pocket". And it doesn't have to involve "rhythm section" instruments now that I think about it. A String ensemble can have great groove and pocket, if the players are all living in the correct rhythmic space
 
Rattlin' Bones said:
I think the groove is the basic pattern - shuffles, swings, rock 8's, NOLA second line (clave/ Bo Diddley), or various Latin grooves.

The pocket is how well you lay down the groove and stay locked in with other players, especially the bass. I think "pocket" is most applicable to shuffles, swings, and NOLA. I got a compliment a few weeks ago at an open jam about how well I played in "the pocket."
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I agree with this. And like you, I’ve been playing at a couple open blues jams and I was also complemented on my locking in the pocket.
 
I learned that “in the pocket” meant you were slightly back on the beat, creating a loose and comfortable vibe but others seem to think it means something else.

Groove is just the word for timekeeping, you can say “he has shit groove” or “good groove” or “the groove is in the pocket”, it is neither good nor bad it just refers to the act of playing time.
 
Duck Tape said:
I learned that “in the pocket” meant you were slightly back on the beat, creating a loose and comfortable vibe but others seem to think it means something else.

Groove is just the word for timekeeping, you can say “he has shit groove” or “good groove” or “the groove is in the pocket”, it is neither good nor bad it just refers to the act of playing time.
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yeah...I agree that pocket is created by being a tad behind the pulse....

except for other kinds of pockets...like:
- the pocket of a punk "d-beat" is a little more in front of the pulse
- the pocket for EDM/industrial is right on the pulse
- the pocket for a blast beat is also right on the pulse, though I have heard guys to blast beats that are a little behind the pluse, and that feels good as well. Gene Hogland plays just behind the pulse in his blast beats, but Aaron Kitchner is right on the pulse
 
dcrigger said:
IMO slang terms used pretty much synonymously.
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Not really. I can distinctly define groove. When someone asks me what groove are we playing, I can say it's a swing or shuffle or rock 8's ar a little NOLA feel or a funk or whatever. It's what would be on a piece of sheet music.

Pocket is more qualitative. Playing in pocket is tightness with the other players. If drummer is playing a swing groove but is just totally playing by themselves not paying any attention to accents the bass or keys are playing, then they are playing the groove but they're not playing in the pocket.
 
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