what's the difference between the Groove and the Pocket?

[Rattlin' Bones]

When/how do you decide which instrument moves to occupy the same pocket space? Because it's always been me as a drummer who determines it until recently working with a diff bass player. He wasn't gonna move so I did. Not that he's wrong, because there may be a new vibe discovered that I was missing.

But who usually drives the band?

I never think of pocket as having a leader who "determines" it. It's a qualitative feel. You're clickin' and locked in with bass and often keys if keys are comping and that's the pocket. Like Bermuda said, pocket is tightness with the other players. No one player "determines" it. Now, the entire band does need to be playing the same groove. Can't have bass and keys playing a Samba groove and me the drummer swinging it lol. I usually drive the groove in our blues band the rest of band plays off what I'm playing. I don't really think of myself driving the groove in our little jazz combo, but I need to make sure I'm in synch and in pocket with bass player.

 

[Sully151]

 

[Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX]

Wait she is a singer? I wondered what she did besides date a football player...
No I am jokin but every time I make an effort to hear one of her tunes, I do not seem to find the "special" part of it, then I remember she came from country music originally and I kind of start getting it.

The way I see it is when hanna montana grew up and became Miley Cyrus, and went through some phases, she lost an audience of goody goody young girls that were too young to follow Miley through those changes and in comes TS swooping up the younger audience that was left behind by Miley's wilder side. She saw a market and dominated it. Personally I think Miley deserves so much more attention and credit as far as the talent and ability goes. I mean no other female singer ever got me up dancing and singing about buying myself flowers!! Talking groove, she got the groove. I look a fool doing it maybe but that is the catchiest tune I have heard in a long long time. Plus she doesn't sound like everyone else.

sorry i took the groove/pocket thing and the TS thing and HAD to throw in my love for Miley. OK i will go to bed gnite ya'll

it is probably just the old metalhead/punker in me talking, but

I still fail to see the "special" in anything TS does...music or marketing. She is just another wave....she set some records, and broke some other ones, but so did all of the corporate mega stars before her. i don't think she changed the landscape. Swifties that I know bring up all of these "amazing" examples, and I can usually answer them with: Zeppelin did that; The Beatles did that; Iron Maiden did that; Michael Jackson did that; etc....

I don't think her music will be remembered in 400 years like Bach. She did not start any waves going...her offstage antics might be sort of remembered....but who cares

 

[Luv4drums]

I have nothing to add other than, another okay band name.
"Groove and the Pocket"

Seems like the start of a good joke, A groove and a pocket walk into a bar...

 

[Luv4drums]

it is probably just the old metalhead/punker in me talking, but

I still fail to see the "special" in anything TS does...music or marketing. She is just another wave....she set some records, and broke some other ones, but so did all of the corporate mega stars before her. i don't think she changed the landscape. Swifties that I know bring up all of these "amazing" examples, and I can usually answer them with: Zeppelin did that; The Beatles did that; Iron Maiden did that; Michael Jackson did that; etc....

I don't think her music will be remembered in 400 years like Bach. She did not start any waves going...her offstage antics might be sort of remembered....but who cares

Nobody remembers her music now. lol.

 

[Croatian Man]

it is probably just the old metalhead/punker in me talking, but

I still fail to see the "special" in anything TS does...music or marketing. She is just another wave....she set some records, and broke some other ones, but so did all of the corporate mega stars before her. i don't think she changed the landscape. Swifties that I know bring up all of these "amazing" examples, and I can usually answer them with: Zeppelin did that; The Beatles did that; Iron Maiden did that; Michael Jackson did that; etc....

I don't think her music will be remembered in 400 years like Bach. She did not start any waves going...her offstage antics might be sort of remembered....but who cares

The Celebrities you cited did Change The Landscape. I would add another Frank Sinatra which ironically is rising in the polls again!! Not my Fav (although I certainly appreciate good music and his singing voice), but his music is again being played World Wide and gaining in renewed popularity. The "stuff" with Kelce is just silly / stupid. Time will tell how long it lasts. Will the Yougins play TS music 70, 60, or 50 years from Now. I doubt it.

 

[2 hit wonder]

I never think of pocket as having a leader who "determines" it. It's a qualitative feel. You're clickin' and locked in with bass and often keys if keys are comping and that's the pocket. Like Bermuda said, pocket is tightness with the other players. No one player "determines" it. Now, the entire band does need to be playing the same groove. Can't have bass and keys playing a Samba groove and me the drummer swinging it lol. I usually drive the groove in our blues band the rest of band plays off what I'm playing. I don't really think of myself driving the groove in our little jazz combo, but I need to make sure I'm in synch and in pocket with bass player.

Yeah, the point is, that bass player took his own path and didn't move to the groove that the drummer extended to the music.
That was a new one for me. Not saying he was wrong. But it was a new one. The keys pointed it out to every one. Bass still didn't move on the next run through.

 

[No Way Jose]

I keep my groove in my pocket.

 

[Luv4drums]

The groove is the collective attitude of the song, the vibe, The groove changes depending on major/minor chords, the atmosphere...
The pocket is the collective synchronization, and placement of notes on the same place in the tempo all together as the meter flows in place.
???

 

[Luv4drums]

You wanna be in the pocket when grooving. I like "Pocket Rock-it" sounds like a Ronco product-the Pocket Fisherman. I still have my Dad's pocket fisherman oddly enough.
Interesting I never really thought about it-but it is "feel" but of that pattern you're playing. It use to be the tiny "grooves" in the vinyl album that magically contained the music lol. I wonder where it came from-you get in a groove doing other things too. So it's not just a drumming thing-or indentation in something. It's a pattern thing isn't it? But you have to be in the groove to repeat the pattern-dang I'm going in circles ROFL. No, no, no I was right first time you're in the pocket playing the groove-the pattern of what you're doing. That's my final answer Alex. LOL

I believe it came from soul, It was groovy like tommy chong you know groovy man. That cat is groovey, "thin lizzy" "Johnny the fox" I think is a lyric, "meets jimmy the weed", The rhythm there is groovy.

 

[A J]

I've used both "groove" and "pocket" as an excuse for why I can't play some complex, weirdo, odd time drum part!

My standard excuse: "I'm an in-the-pocket, groove player who prefers to serve the song with a less-is-more style that leaves space for the other instruments."

You guys now know the truth!

 

[Luv4drums]

I've used both "groove" and "pocket" as an excuse for why I can't play some complex, weirdo, odd time drum part!

My standard excuse: "I'm an in-the-pocket, groove player who prefers to serve the song with a less-is-more style that leaves space for the other instruments."

You guys now know the truth!

Couldn't help but to compliment your comment. I am guilty of the less is more, play for the song excuse too. Especially now where i still have not secured a place to restart playing again. But you put it so eloquently. Nice.

Truth is out there,

peace

 

[2 hit wonder]

In a standard rock, blues genres some drummers have very little flair. Some guitar players like that because the beat is just gonna be there in the pocket. No ears will be trained to hear what the drummer is doing back there. And some guitar players like that so they can keep the attention on themselves.

 

[Luv4drums]

In a standard rock, blues genres some drummers have very little flair. Some guitar players like that because the beat is just gonna be there in the pocket. No ears will be trained to hear what the drummer is doing back there. And some guitar players like that so they can keep the attention on themselves.

Blues really bored me when I was actively playing. For that reason, and everyone wants a quiet drummer for blues. Although playing quiet takes more control and patience. I used to say that is tapping, not drumming. I didn't get all this noisy gear to tap on it. sheesh. But now I'd be happy playing anything, tapping or not.

 

[2 hit wonder]

Blues really bored me when I was actively playing. For that reason, and everyone wants a quiet drummer for blues. Although playing quiet takes more control and patience. I used to say that is tapping, not drumming. I didn't get all this noisy gear to tap on it. sheesh. But now I'd be happy playing anything, tapping or not.

Oh, this person ain't quiet. He's about the loudest. But yeah, I experience those ultra quiet demands at jams. He just doesn't do more than the beat so no eyes leave the guitar players.

I'm pretty sensitive about the quiet topic. Caused by a few guit/keys players. They would say nothing to the longer established drummers bashing away at will and then check me on volume because I'm newerto the scene. Uh, then how about I just don't play and you can deal with the actual loud drummers instead? Or maybe you just don't have a drummer at all?
Got really bored with the entitled guitar player mentality. It's why I'm backing off of drums for the past year.

As a drummer, i'll try to cooperate. And if you pay me and you're the leader at an actual gig, I'll do what you want. But if it's a house jam? Play your way and I'll play mine. I'm not as loud as that guy watching and waiting to play and will gladly let you deal with him instead of me.

I'm not a loud drummer, in fact I went out of my way to point out the volume of a few examples for comparison. It's just that I got sensitive because I tried to compromise and saw the double standard.

For 1 guitar player there is no quiet drummer that's quiet enough, so he's an extreme. For another he expects a drummer at non-paid jams to play to his desires instead of letting all players just play how they want in the same way he is. Then there's the couple who get loud, realize it and then call out the whole group for being loud.

My quoted statement is about guy who doesn't really have flair but is preferred by a few for his simplicity and not stealing any show. But he's damn loud. No control over his rimshots. He starts out moderate and before you know it he's just shy of starting a rimshot at 90 degrees from the head. No BS. I've focused on it. But he just plays the groove and if he hasn't had too much drink he doesn't change timing too much. He's solid usually.

Rant over...for now.

 

[Luv4drums]

Oh, this person ain't quiet. He's about the loudest. But yeah, I experience those ultra quiet demands at jams. He just doesn't do more than the beat so no eyes leave the guitar players.

I'm pretty sensitive about the quiet topic. Caused by a few guit/keys players. They would say nothing to the longer established drummers bashing away at will and then check me on volume because I'm newerto the scene. Uh, then how about I just don't play and you can deal with the actual loud drummers instead? Or maybe you just don't have a drummer at all?
Got really bored with the entitled guitar player mentality. It's why I'm backing off of drums for the past year.

As a drummer, i'll try to cooperate. And if you pay me and you're the leader at an actual gig, I'll do what you want. But if it's a house jam? Play your way and I'll play mine. I'm not as loud as that guy watching and waiting to play and will gladly let you deal with him instead of me.

I'm not a loud drummer, in fact I went out of my way to point out the volume of a few examples for comparison. It's just that I got sensitive because I tried to compromise and saw the double standard.

For 1 guitar player there is no quiet drummer that's quiet enough, so he's an extreme. For another he expects a drummer at non-paid jams to play to his desires instead of letting all players just play how they want in the same way he is. Then there's the couple who get loud, realize it and then call out the whole group for being loud.

My quoted statement is about guy who doesn't really have flair but is preferred by a few for his simplicity and not stealing any show. But he's damn loud. No control over his rimshots. He starts out moderate and before you know it he's just shy of starting a rimshot at 90 degrees from the head. No BS. I've focused on it. But he just plays the groove and if he hasn't had too much drink he doesn't change timing too much. He's solid usually.

Rant over...for now.

The quiet playing imo should be reserved for parts of the song that are meant to have a dynamic part in which the level is meant to fit the song. If a band is looking for a tapper, I will learn to tap, I am a little bit of a (person who sells themself) at this time. Anyone that will have me. I was never that way before.

 

[Bozozoid]

Jeff Porcaro has the answer. My groove pocket hero.

 

[doggyd69b]

When/how do you decide which instrument moves to occupy the same pocket space? Because it's always been me as a drummer who determines it until recently working with a diff bass player. He wasn't gonna move so I did. Not that he's wrong, because there may be a new vibe discovered that I was missing.

But who usually drives the band?

I guess it can be decided when certain instrument is more dominant than others. I have heard a few pieces where the drums start being the dominant instrument, then the music progresses and a keyboard and guitars become dominant and the drums are just doing fills to compliment them. I don't think it's decided by a band member but by the way the song is structured.

for example this song at the 1:56 mark:

 

[Luv4drums]

I guess it can be decided when certain instrument is more dominant than others. I have heard a few pieces where the drums start being the dominant instrument, then the music progresses and a keyboard and guitars become dominant and the drums are just doing fills to compliment them. I don't think it's decided by a band member but by the way the song is structured.

for example this song at the 1:56 mark:

That guy is amazing. I have watched that special this was from. This is where I excuse my self by saying he over plays... way too much, But that is the smallness my little bit of ego that is actually saying he is amazing. A lot of his playing is a huge part of the songs, it is almost like he is the centerpiece. Still one of the best drummers out there... Kind of get the Simon philips/terry bozzio vibe. x100 I imagine when guitar players 1st heard EVH they must have felt like i do now... Turn my kit into flower pots after this, maybe I can grow some tomatoes or something.

 

[2 hit wonder]

That guy is amazing. I have watched that special this was from. This is where I excuse my self by saying he over plays... way too much, But that is the smallness my little bit of ego that is actually saying he is amazing. A lot of his playing is a huge part of the songs, it is almost like he is the centerpiece. Still one of the best drummers out there... Kind of get the Simon philips/terry bozzio vibe. x100 I imagine when guitar players 1st heard EVH they must have felt like i do now... Turn my kit into flower pots after this, maybe I can grow some tomatoes or something.

I'll have to check the video. My question on who drives the band seems to be answered by, it is comes down to who has the vision on the song or project?

Local bassist used to fly to NYC for a regular club gig. First time playing there they asked, Where's that player we hired? The crazy Southern dude with the flair? The rest of the musicians were all local NYC pro trained guys who did session and Jazz work. He said they expected him to drive the band because they'd all been stuffed inside this pro musician box and couldn't just vibe organically with themselves.