Is it a myth that certain drumming legends have an inimitable 'feel' on the kit?

I can see a really great player copping another drummer's feel on a specific lick or two and fooling most of us. But for a whole album or concert? I'm more skeptical.
 
I see this mostly in guitar players but am sure it applies to drummers as well: Emulating your hero(s) to a point of sounding like them. Don't know how many Dimebag guitar player friends I had. Dimebag Keith, Dimebag Jimmy, Dimebag Ron, etc.

Maybe not Gadds or Pocaros or Weckls, but how many Ulrichs, Pearts, or Bonhams are there because that's all those folks know?
 
trickg said:
I'm sure Benny Greb is awesome, but there are SO many things that go into how a drummer sounds that it would be impossible for a player to truly duplicate all of it for exactly the same feel:

  • mass and weight of the player's hands
  • where on the snares and cymbals they strike
  • mass and weight of the player's arms/legs
  • length of the player's arms/legs
  • How tight/loose the player is holding the sticks
  • where on the stick the player is holding
  • how the fingers are laying on the stick
  • the angle of the stick when it hits
  • How much or how little snap the player imparts into the stroke
  • How hard or soft they play the kick in relation to their hands
  • where on the pedal they rest their foot
  • How much or little snap the foot/ankle imparts into the stroke
  • How hard or soft one hand is in relation to the other in how the drums/cymbals are being played
  • etc.
There are countless microscopic elements that go into how an individual sounds. Benny might be able to get close to Gadd, but it would still be different because he's not Steve Gadd.

I'd submit that it would be harder to tell the difference between drummers who are playing hard - blast beats, high speed triggered playing is going to sound more similar than different, but when you consider the nuances between the approaches of different drummers in a setting where the subtleties can be better noticed, it's going to be easier to tell.

I think that Chet Baker said it best: "well, if I could play like Wynton, (Marsalis) I wouldn't play like Wynton."
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How would playing hard and fast be any different? Every single thing in your list is still applies.

As far using triggers, I would assume if you triggered Benny and Gadd you would have the same effect. That has nothing to do with how fast or hard one is playing.
 
MrInsanePolack said:
I see this mostly in guitar players but am sure it applies to drummers as well: Emulating your hero(s) to a point of sounding like them. Don't know how many Dimebag guitar player friends I had. Dimebag Keith, Dimebag Jimmy, Dimebag Ron, etc.

Maybe not Gadds or Pocaros or Weckls, but how many Ulrichs, Pearts, or Bonhams are there because that's all those folks know?
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Yea, you see that a lot. People who covet the specific feel and skills of one player. For a while in the 90's you could throw a stone and hit a guitar player that tried to sound like Tool's Adam. We used to say "well, he came from the school of tool". Heard other people try to sound like say Jimi Hendrix, and yea, good luck with that. It just doesn't work, we're all different in too many ways to ever actually be the same.

Tell 3 drummers to play the money beat, even tell them to try and emulate a specific example, and they will all sound different. It's just a fact.
 
beyondbetrayal said:
How would playing hard and fast be any different? Every single thing in your list is still applies.

As far using triggers, I would assume if you triggered Benny and Gadd you would have the same effect. That has nothing to do with how fast or hard one is playing.
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I didn't say it didn't apply - I just said that telling the difference between players based on sound alone would be more difficult - more notes, less space between hits, and less tonal nuance.

And yes - if you triggered Benny and Steve, it would be markedly more difficult to tell who was who because the sounds would not be their sounds.
 
WhoIsTony? said:
go to Steve Maxwells shop... sit behind Elvins yellow kit and do your best to sound like Elvin ... hell, maybe Don Bennett will bring over Elvins cymbals for you

I'll go one further and ask you to grab any drummer you'd like

Steve Smith
Ralph Peterson
Brian Blade
Peter Erskine
Will Calhoun

all highly influenced by Elvin

ask them to sit behind Elvins kit and sound like him

I think you'll have the answer to your own question
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Your ability to school utter silliness is unsurpassed.

Thank christ for you my friend. One of the last bastions who'll vehemently fight for truth over fantasy. Every time I think I've completely had enough of this place, I come across one of your posts and I realise that, just maybe, all hope isn't actually lost.
 
WhoIsTony? said:
go to Steve Maxwells shop... sit behind Elvins yellow kit and do your best to sound like Elvin ... hell, maybe Don Bennett will bring over Elvins cymbals for you

I'll go one further and ask you to grab any drummer you'd like

Steve Smith
Ralph Peterson
Brian Blade
Peter Erskine
Will Calhoun

all highly influenced by Elvin

ask them to sit behind Elvins kit and sound like him

I think you'll have the answer to your own question
Click to expand...


Your ability to school utter silliness is unsurpassed.

Thank christ for you my friend. One of the last bastions who'll vehemently fight for truth over fantasy. Every time I think I've completely had enough of this place, I come across one of your posts and I realise that, just maybe, all hope isn't actually lost.


larryace said:
I'm not sure if it was ever a myth in the first place. It's kind of a fact. Everybody brings something a little different to the table. A drummer's touch is a signature, there's a lot of signatures.
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Gold, uncle. Pure gold!
 
Everyone sounds different.

You can get really good at impersonating some if you want to, though.

Not always, but sometimes it's more about the gear than we think, too.
 
WhoIsTony? said:
go to Steve Maxwells shop... sit behind Elvins yellow kit and do your best to sound like Elvin ... hell, maybe Don Bennett will bring over Elvins cymbals for you

I'll go one further and ask you to grab any drummer you'd like

Steve Smith
Ralph Peterson
Brian Blade
Peter Erskine
Will Calhoun

all highly influenced by Elvin

ask them to sit behind Elvins kit and sound like him

I think you'll have the answer to your own question
Click to expand...

Very true, but if they were all putting in 100% of their effort to sound exactly like Elvin, could you tell them apart in a blindfolded test leading back to OP's question?

I guess if you had Elvin play, and one of them try to play Elvin's style that's easyier to pick out..

What if you took Elvin and Will Calhoun who were both trying to play like Steve Smith. Could you tell them apart at this point?
 
beyondbetrayal said:
Very true, but if they were all putting in 100% of their effort to sound exactly like Elvin, could you tell them apart in a blindfolded test leading back to OP's question?

I guess if you had Elvin play, and one of them try to play Elvin's style that's easyier to pick out..

What if you took Elvin and Will Calhoun who were both trying to play like Steve Smith. Could you tell them apart at this point?
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It really depends on how long you'd studied a particular player so you could really pick out all the idiosyncrasies of their playing. At this point in his life, I actually wonder if Tony might be able to pick out Elvin's playing without knowing. Some players put more of their own style into the music than others, and for me Elvin is one of the outliers where I'll listen to something and think "that either sounds like or is Elvin". Lots of times I'm right.

Like with a writer/author. We all know that prolific novelists each have their own writing style that "belongs" to them. Nobody else would choose to put sentences and paragraphs and ideas together in exactly the same way in the same situations. Others will come along who were influenced/inspired by that author and may have a similar style, even to the point of attempting to copy the original artist, but copy only goes so far. When that copier goes to write a new novel, with the same subject/arc/storyline and the original author of the style attempts to write the same in parallel the two will come out totally different. Because each has a style that's inherent to themselves.

You can copy a work, but you can't really copy a style anymore than you can think the same thoughts as someone else.
 
toddbishop said:
What would be the point?
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Why, to be totally bitchin and badass of course!

I don't agree to consciously trying to emulate another drummer. Unconsciously is another story. That's a function of what the drummer has absorbed and their influences rising to the surface.

But to forego one's own musical identity to try and be like someone else musically...I think that's a tiny bit sad. What if Elvin did that? We wouldn't have Elvin as we know him. His influences are on display I'm sure, but Elvin does Elvin. As it should be.
 
WhoIsTony? said:
I could pick most guys out by their ride beat alone
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Took me a while to get the subtext of this line. For a long time I was trying to get my Fifty-Five to sound like I heard other people do it. Maybe a natural starting place, but I realize now I sort of missed the point of playing jazz on the drums.

Then one day it hit me, I can have my own style on the ride. Haven't looked back too much. I just listen hard to the music and do what my brain thinks is the right swing for the tune. What's weird is that more and more I'm interpreting my own ideas instead of "defaulting" to the "ol' 55" and it makes for a much smoother playing experience. I wonder if down the line my "style" will start to separate more and more from the greats I listen to a lot and be identifiable.
 
opentune said:
I think some are overly optimistic here. Sure Bonham and Ringo are black vs white, but neither is a studio session drummer.
Can people spot Gordon from Porcaro on Steely Dan records? Marotta from Katche on Peter Gabriel? Andy Newmark from Dennis Davis on Bowie? (without reading the credits). I doubt it.

We need a good blind test on youtube.
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Id love to take this challenge! I used to lose my mind when I was a younger drummer and older drummers could identify drummers by ear. Later I found I was able to do the same sometimes....and nothing makes me happier lol. Certain drummers I can spot most of the time. Im feeling my oats today or whatever that saying is when ur acting cockey. Me being cockey is amusing to me, not my style. Anyway, yes lets do blind tests!
 
I think anyone would have a hard time with certain things. Try Sting's "Sacred Love" and 67th and 9th.

On many modern pop records the drummers themselves can't tell.
 
Odd-Arne Oseberg said:
..On many modern pop records the drummers themselves can't tell..
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When first seeing the thread i also immediately thought..: ofcourse is not a myth, each drummer has a own completely unique feel..

Which ofcourse is true as true can be, each human being has a unique feel..

But, to say that that feel, and therefore the drummer, will always be recognized is just silly..

With blindfolded-tests people always fail, even the 'big' drummers..I have to look this up to be 100% sure was him, but i think even Weckl had a score from 4 or 5 out of 10, when asked which drummer was playing on a certain song..

And then he actually heard the complete song..When you would seperate the drumpart completely from the music, i doubt that anyone here would recognize immediately basically all the famous drummers that they can think about..

Like, ofcourse everyone would immediately recognise Steve Gadd when hearing the beat from 50 Ways To Leave Your Lover, but how many people would recognise Steve Gadd when hearing only the drumpart from Clapton's Riding With The King..?

Untill proven with a blindfold-test with only listening to a seperated drumpart, i believe no one who claims that they will hear that..
 
T-1000 said:
Yes, but we're talking about virtuoso drummers imitating each other. You really think that Benny Greb doesn't have the nuance and technique to play a Steve Gadd lick so it sounds exactly like Steve Gadd (assuming he's also playing on Gadd's drum kit)?
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I could be wrong, but I think you might be confusing feel with technical ability.

Greb will certainly have the ears, technical ability and nuance to copy and sound very close to Gadd, but it will still be Greb's feel, not Gadd's feel. That's not to suggest Greb's feel will be inferior, just different.

Drum software can even be programmed to copy every little detail of a Gadd lick and even have individual beats moved around to give it a more human feel, but do you think it'll feel like Gadd playing it? Of course not.

Ever seen professional impersonators imitating celebrities? Take Christopher Walken, a great one to imitate. Or Robert DeNiro. There are several who can take those guys off perfectly, with all the nuances. But then listen to the actual actors, and you'll see and hear nuances within the nuances that the impersonators can't get. Every drummer, amateur and professional, has a feel as individual as their DNA, their voice, or the lines in the palm of their hands. It's just that a handful of drummers over the years have a feel so unique, a pocket so deep or they swing so hard that they stand out.
 
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