Programming and Bass Drum Patterns

C

Chris Whitten

Platinum Member
I've been recording for decades. Most of the time the writer determines the drum groove, or you work on it with the bass player. It might change two or three times in a whole song (verse, chorus, bridge or solo).
So here's the thing.....
Recently I've been working with artists who programme guide drum tracks. Maybe they drop commercial midi on to the drum player (Logic Drummer, Superior etc)? Commercial midi being often unnecessarily complex IMO.
But every two bars there is a different bass drum pattern. It is so hard to remember. Think of the classics (rock and pop), they have maybe two bass drum patterns in the whole song, one for the verse and a slightly different or expanded version for the chorus.
I can't remember - pre DAWS and software drum programmes, ever having complex bars of bass drum patterns that endlessly change. :cry:
 
so what's the problem don't you erase eliminate their part compose a new part and replace lay that into the track
or what why or doesn't it work that way
 
jda - I think the challenge/problem occurs when the artist falls in love with their programed drum parts regardless whether or not they are physically feasible or sensible from a drum throne with an actual human. @Chris Whitten correct me if I am misinterpreting that.

I have encountered at least one recent example of this where the artist had programmed drums and sent me the track and was like "Can you replicate this as closely as possible?"....whenI listened to it was a case of "Octopus Drums" which is my term for a track that requires more limbs than a human and if they truly want it a portion will be overdubs..... I think that one had 16ths on the hats concurrently with a ride pattern and 8ths on the floor tom with a back beat.........which to my ear was a train wreck.....but it was their song.....lol

The constantly changing kick pattern that Chris referenced would be rough to get to "feel" natural and groove depending on the tune etc. Sounds like a PITA....
 
I always try to be consistent with the beats when I program drums, but I tend to throw an occasional monkey wrench into it just so it’s not so consistent that it’s boring. Fine line.

However, if I hired someone like you, you would have to really poop it up for me to question your expertise and experience.
 
The drum parts I get are relatively easy to play, it's just that they are constantly changing, every two to four bars is a slightly different bass drum part.
River19 is right, most of the time I get asked to play pretty much at the end of the record making process. The artist has lived with the drum part they programmed for weeks and months. It is jarring to hear something different. They often just want a better feel and some better drum fills (decent fills being more complicated to programme). I just know that's what they want, but as 'River' says, quite often they actually say they want the same parts played identically, just "play some of your own fills".
Lucky for me they aren't humanly impossible, but they are ever changing which is an added stress.
 
Chris Whitten said:
The drum parts I get are relatively easy to play, it's just that they are constantly changing, every two to four bars is a slightly different bass drum part.
River19 is right, most of the time I get asked to play pretty much at the end of the record making process. The artist has lived with the drum part they programmed for weeks and months. It is jarring to hear something different. They often just want a better feel and some better drum fills (decent fills being more complicated to programme). I just know that's what they want, but as 'River' says, quite often they actually say they want the same parts played identically, just "play some of your own fills".
Lucky for me they aren't humanly impossible, but they are ever changing which is an added stress.
Click to expand...
How welcome is honesty with these clients? Do they really want those abrupt changes and request them?
 
JimmyM said:
How welcome is honesty with these clients? Do they really want those abrupt changes and request them?
Click to expand...

I'm sure Chris will relay his experience, but from my side......it's mixed. Some are still in the "writing" and "arranging" phase where I may be able to make some strategic suggestions......while some are in the mode of "the song is done, just need better drum sounds and options on fills"......and the latter group is where they are usually fairly set in what they have.

One approach I have done with mixed success is cut the track the way they want, and provided the track isn't that complicated and time consuming I have provided them an alternate take. For example a lot of times I might hear a good half time feel that would work well in a song and I will provide a new version with my idea, if they use it, great, if not they come away with the fact that I am "creative and provide options".

In a slight variation on this concept of challenge I have also encountered drumless tracks with a tempo of say 90 or 100bpm with no real track notes other than basic song form. So I will work up a few options that will work at those tempos only to send off a track and have them come back with "that sounds good but we were thinking double time for the song".......which is really effectively a 180 or 200bpm groove which is a different animal entirely and something they should ideally convey ahead of time !!!! (mini rant over). And yes I start asking that question ahead of time now.....
 
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Chris Whitten said:
I've been recording for decades. Most of the time the writer determines the drum groove, or you work on it with the bass player. It might change two or three times in a whole song (verse, chorus, bridge or solo).
So here's the thing.....
Recently I've been working with artists who programme guide drum tracks. Maybe they drop commercial midi on to the drum player (Logic Drummer, Superior etc)? Commercial midi being often unnecessarily complex IMO.
But every two bars there is a different bass drum pattern. It is so hard to remember. Think of the classics (rock and pop), they have maybe two bass drum patterns in the whole song, one for the verse and a slightly different or expanded version for the chorus.
I can't remember - pre DAWS and software drum programmes, ever having complex bars of bass drum patterns that endlessly change. :cry:
Click to expand...
But wouldn't charts and sight reading solve these problems? I've been reading in another thread about how important they are and that every drummer should learn to read and write them. So are they useless in this situation? Genuine question.
 
"like making an appointment with a barber showing up then directing not to touch my hair"
anyways it's funny
 
Erberderber said:
But wouldn't charts and sight reading solve these problems? I've been reading in another thread about how important they are and that every drummer should learn to read and write them. So are they useless in this situation? Genuine question.
Click to expand...
In order for charts to work, you have to:

1. Have a client who can write charts

Or…

2. Come up with a part and chart it

Sometimes you can get a chart, sometimes you hear the demo and make your own crib notes version of a chart as a guide. And in those charts you may scribble a few notes or bars using notation if it’s something that needs to be there or is too difficult to remember exactly.

So it can come in handy, sure.
 
I think Erber means transcribe the part it came with
then hold thy nose and perform it
 
JimmyM said:
How welcome is honesty with these clients? Do they really want those abrupt changes and request them?
Click to expand...
They aren't abrupt changes, they are just constantly evolving. So perhaps 1 & 3 on kick bar one, bar two is the and of one and 3, then the next bar is a hit in one, then two sixteenths on 3, and so on and so on.
It makes sense with the bass and guitars, but in most of the professional music I've played over the years most drum parts are repeating one bar or two bar phrases, at least for 8 bar chunks, not four different bass drum patterns in 8 bars.

Back to my first post....
It is an interesting phenomenon in the programmed drums age.
Back in the early drum machine days (Linn Drum and DMX) people couldn't be bothered to chain a song together. So most times when they presented you with their almost finished record the guide drum were just a one bar loop repeated of a simple pattern.
 
jda said:
"like making an appointment with a barber showing up then directing not to touch my hair"
Click to expand...
It happens all the time in many careers. "Here's my idea for a poster, can you make it look more professional".
Celebrities have professional writers write their 'autobiographies' for them.
I'm happy to be drumming every week, and it's a sense of achievement when I finish the track and even better when the client absolutely loves what I've done.
 
Some clients you have to turn down or explain to them what you think is best route

it appears this person is not letting you do your thing
Sound like you're being boxed in

Pretty easy to solve
Just turn it down or have him allow you to perform it the way you see fit
what's the problem
 
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I'm providing a service. If it was going to be a major release with my name on it I might question some of the ideas. But this is not an arena for conflict. People hire me to make their demo drums sound better. That's the gig right there.
I'm not upset my 'voice isn't being heard' - the point of the thread was that 10-20 years ago a lot of pop music was long sections of groove that only ever changed slightly. Rosanna (Toto) has two consistent shuffle grooves which are almost the same (verse and chorus), and a third bridge section of fast swing. I'm now often working on songs that rarely have the same bar twice.
 
I understand all that.
But if they are seeking your expertise
shouldn't they listen to your kindly worded suggestion(s)?

basically
River19 said:
provided them an alternate take
Click to expand...
 
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jda said:
I understand all that.
But if they are seeking your expertise
shouldn't they listen to your kindly worded suggestion(s)?

basically
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They might, and they might not. You should know the golden rule by now: those with the gold rule.

Besides, what do so many musicians have against being given some direction or someone suggesting a change? In any band I was in that was any good, we all had suggestions for each other sometimes. If something doesn’t work, then it must be changed.
 
Funny you should mention this.

The other day I noticed just how much more syncopated modern hard rock and metal bands are.

Instead of having a repeating 1 or 2 bar pattern of kick and snare, yeah, the bass drum pattern is constantly changing and the snare is no longer driving on 2 and 4 as much as it's playing off beats.

And I'm not talking about prog where it's a bunch of fills and odd times, but songs in 4/4 but with different bass drum patterns every few bars.

I suppose it's the influence of the hip-hop DJ and the drum-and-bass scene where mixing up rhythms while keeping a constant pulse is a main feature.
 
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