drummers who can't read music notation

[joedrum]

I guess it's less necessary, but it still puts you at a disadvantage.
There is a reason many people in the industry half seriously describe bands as three musicians and a drummer. (I hate it).
No one is passing judgement. The debate is is it a useful tool and does more knowledge equal power. I haven't yet seen a post that persuades me that fewer skills and less knowledge is in any way a GOOD thing.

I agree with you, Chris. That's a ridiculous thing for people to say especially considering all the songs built around the drums. In a recent interview on John's DeChristopher's Live From My Drum Room show music producer Gary Katz was talking about Boz Scaggs Lido Shuffle (I believe that was the song) he said they were smart enough to bring the drums up front. And there are just so many songs like that. Especially in rock/pop.

BTW if there is any truth to your quoted statement about 3 musicians and a drummer then that to me just indicates that drummers are just on a much higher plane than musicians!

 

[Rattlin' Bones]

Like I was never 13.

I think the days have past when 13 year olds are getting together in a garage and playing rock n blues........long gone.
If they are doing music at all they're probably deep into programming, computers, samples, electronica.
Most are probably making their own apps, making videos for Youtube and Tik-Tok. Learning IT skills.
The gigs are scarce and it's competitive, even for weekend warriors. In the 70's when I was young you could get away with average drumming and not knowing anything else about music (reading charts, piano playing). Now kids are multi-skilled, can play multiple instruments. If they can't read music they are fluent in Logic, Ableton Live, Pro Tools.

You were 13 years old in an environment where only opportunities to play required reading.

You are right about most of the 13 year olds today. If they are doing music at all they're probably deep into programming, computers, samples, electronica. If they can't read music they are fluent in Logic, Ableton Live, Pro Tools. Different world today!

 

[Rattlin' Bones]

Three musicians and a drummer......three chords and the truth.

 

[MattRitter]

Learning a song by ear is a talent but it isn't really knowledge, or education.

I'm not sure that is actually correct. Most music degree programs feature a course of study that is literally called "Ear Training." In the "Ear Training" classes, the students are systematically trained to hear the details of music...melodically, harmonically, and rhythmically.

When I teach, I generally find that new students can barely "hear" anything at all. This is true even of those students who gradually end up being good drummers. If we listen to a piece of music and talk about it during our early lessons, the discussion usually goes something like this...

Me: Do you hear anything that jumps out at you about the drums?

Student: I think I hear something sort of metallic sounding. Is that the top hat?

Me: A top hat is something that a gentleman wears with a tuxedo. Do you mean "hi-hat"?

Student: Oh yeah, I mean "hi-hat."

Me: Actually, the thing you're hearing is the ride cymbal. Do you hear anything else?

Student: Not really.

And so on...

More often than not, this is actually the "boots on the ground" reality of working with someone who is brand new to drums. Then, as the person gradually acquires knowledge and education, they gradually start to "hear" stuff.

So just because he may not read music doesn't mean he doesn't know and understand all of the music theory he's discussing with his band, songwriter, etc.

This is a distinction that you obviously feel very strongly about. Would you mind clarifying this a bit more by describing your own process of learning music theory, and then learning reading? I seem to recall that you said you learned theory first. What exactly did that entail? I mean...what specifically did you learn, and how was that accomplished without notation?

 

[joedrum]

As I've often said... nobody is uneducated. My dad a child of the depression, from a broken home, left school at 13 to go to work, rebuilding car motors at 14, marine in WWII, raised 5 kids, became one if the most respected excavators in the region, outlived a son, watched a wife die...I call that a hell of an education myself.

I've never been one to confuse education with intelligence...or integrity for that matter.

 

[eddypierce]

I'm not sure that is actually correct. Most music degree programs feature a course of study that is literally called "Ear Training." In the "Ear Training" classes, the students are systematically trained to hear the details of music...melodically, harmonically, and rhythmically.

When I teach, I generally find that new students can barely "hear" anything at all. This is true even of those students who gradually end up being good drummers. If we listen to a piece of music and talk about it during our early lessons, the discussion usually goes something like this...

Me: Do you hear anything that jumps out at you about the drums?

Student: I think I hear something sort of metallic sounding. Is that the top hat?

Me: A top hat is something that a gentleman wears with a tuxedo. Do you mean "hi-hat"?

Student: Oh yeah, I mean "hi-hat."

Me: Actually, the thing you're hearing is the ride cymbal. Do you hear anything else?

Student: Not really.

And so on...

More often than not, this is actually the "boots on the ground" reality of working with someone who is brand new to drums. Then, as the person gradually acquires knowledge and education, they gradually start to "hear" stuff.



This is a distinction that you obviously feel very strongly about. Would you mind clarifying this a bit more by describing your own process of learning music theory, and then learning reading? I seem to recall that you said you learned theory first. What exactly did that entail? I mean...what specifically did you learn, and how was that accomplished without notation?

This is so true. I remember that when I was a young drummer, I wasn't able to understand what drummers were playing on records (like I was eventually able to do as I got better and gained more understanding). A pivotal moment for me occurred in the summer before my junior year in high school. I thought I might have a chance of playing in the jazz band at my high school during the upcoming year, and I wanted to learn how to play jazz. I had been taking drum lessons for a few years from a great teacher who had given me a good foundation in reading, rudiments, and basic rock drumming. Unfortunately he had moved away, and I was left without a teacher; but before he left he told me that the next book we would have worked on (had he stayed) was the Chapin book. So I bought it and started working on it (tentatively) on my own. Around the same time, I checked out a book from my local library by Len Lyons called The 101 Best Jazz Albums (a great book; although since it was published in 1980, it is now seriously dated), and I started gradually collecting some of the albums he recommended. From the Lyons book I learned about jazz history, and I read about how drummers in the bebop era moved the time to the ride cymbal and played punctuations with their snare and bass drum against this. As I started listening to records, I gradually could hear what they were doing. A HUGE part of understanding this was being able to see, analytically, in the Chapin book, what I was simultaneously hearing on records. So for me, at least, being able to read was a big help in allowing me to train my ears to discern what Max, Philly Joe, Art, Elvin (etc.) were doing. If I'd ONLY studied the Chapin book and not listened to records, of course, I wouldn't have had a clue how to use the coordination it imparted (and my guess is that without connecting it to what I was listening to, I wouldn't have been motivated to practice out of it anyway). But if I hadn't known how to read, and hadn't bought that Chapin book, I don't know how well I would have been able to figure out what the heck those amazing drummers were doing. I may have figured it out eventually, but it probably would have taken FAR longer. Or I may have just given up in frustration (because, unfortunately, Dennis Chambers I am most certainly not!).

 

[Tamboreter]

for anyone at all familiar with odd meters, who can read, and only needs to keep it simple - this is not an impressive skill. A useful one in many situations for sure.

This is pure gold... a great goal to strive for; playing and maintaining control whilst keeping it simple.

 

[dcrigger]

This is pure gold... a great goal to strive for; playing and maintaining control whilst keeping it simple.

Actually I was saying the ability to read and play such a chart (signatures and slash marks, not a Danny Carey transcription) isn't that lofty of a skill - if a simple performance will suffice - or fit the bill.

Personally I don't consider "keeping it simple" as any kind of a goal applicable to all occasions. I've always held the goal as being able to meet the needs of all situations. Being able to "read the room" to discern what is desired and then be able to fulfill that.

Certainly there's no denying that being able to play simply - oftentimes needing to distill a part down to its most basic core elements. But at least in my experience, that is not the requirement for many gigging opportunities. Playing solid and clearly - of course, always. But there's been tons of gigs (some that would even seem counter-intuitive), where they wanted more than simply.... more fire, more excitement. Oftentimes this would something I'd have to sus by seeing how they reacted to different approaches - but other times (actually many times), the person hiring me would just come out and tell me.

A good example of this would be Burt Bacharach - he absolutely hired me because of the work I had done with Don Ellis. He wanted access to that kind of over-the-top energy, the chops and facility required to be able to do that. But in reality, he only wanted this little sliver of it to his music. I think the idea was - as I saw him choose many players that fit this description... he never wanted to have to goad a plow horse into doing more, he instead wanted to harness race horses and have them do less.... oftentimes a lot less. This is not unusual IMO - as this is why were hear Vinnie, Gadd, etc. on so many recordings and performances - often playing next to nothing. Because the thing is - and I know this after having done tours where I'm basically recreating oftentimes very simple parts previously recorded by Vinnie, JR, Harvey Mason, etc.... and when I play those parts, it is not as good. And I don't consider myself a plow horse, but even if I'm some sort of race horse, I'm not at the level of Vinnie, etc.... and it shows, even when playing the simplest parts.

So no I would never suggest someone strive to be able to keep it simple - at least not until after they conquered the vocabulary of complexity, chops and flash. (great example of this is the YouTube clip of a young Jeff Porcaro playing a fiery flashy drum solo from when he played behind Sonny and Cher in Vegas). It's all about headroom - to solidly deliver 80, we have to be able to deliver 100, or 120. That's the goal - to have enough headroom to be able to settle into any job without it being challenge.

 

[Tamboreter]

Actually I was saying the ability to read and play such a chart (signatures and slash marks, not a Danny Carey transcription) isn't that lofty of a skill - if a simple performance will suffice - or fit the bill.

Personally I don't consider "keeping it simple" as any kind of a goal applicable to all occasions. I've always held the goal as being able to meet the needs of all situations. Being able to "read the room" to discern what is desired and then be able to fulfill that.

Yes, you stated this much better than I. Thx

 

[Rock Salad]

 

[Chris Whitten]

As I've often said... nobody is uneducated. My dad a child of the depression, from a broken home, left school at 13 to go to work, rebuilding car motors at 14, marine in WWII, raised 5 kids, became one if the most respected excavators in the region, outlived a son, watched a wife die...I call that a hell of an education myself.

I've never been one to confuse education with intelligence...or integrity for that matter.

No one is being called unintelligent. The debate is whether you bother to learn a skill or not.

 

[GetAgrippa]

Humans are both intuitive and intelligent-some scientist classify us more intuitive than intelligent (as a population I agree with that). I think it is often task dependent. I think that is the crux because some people approach drumming intuitively and others more intelligently. Apparently guitarist are often more intuitive, yet I've never seen a violinist who wasn't reading performing. When I was younger I could shoot my bow intuitively and nail a bullseye no problem. Now with age I need sights to hit the dang thing-it must be my intuition running away from me (in my best Jagger voice). Since I can't memorize or hear as well I can see reading better will have to be on my horizons. I can't believe in 14 pages the issue isn't settled-you either read or don't. Who cares if self-satisfied with your outcomes.

 

[Rattlin' Bones]

No one is being called unintelligent. The debate is whether you bother to learn a skill or not.

Well, thread objectives per OP:

1. which drummers do not read music
2. what are your thoughts on the importance of reading vs learning by ear/feel?

Lots of folks have responded that for certain genres or circumstances reading ain't all that important vs learning by ear/feel, while in other circumstances it's virtually mandatory.

Joedrum: your example speaks to #2 - your dad's circumstances speak to importance vs non-importance of formal learning and success in life (and success is relative, isn't it), the analogy being importance vs non-importance of learning to read music, which directly addresses OP's question. And you're right Joedrum - it ain't about intelligence. Glad you brought it up, Joedrum.

 

[GetAgrippa]

Science Shows How Drummers' Brains Are Actually Different From Everybody Elses'

In the music world, drummers always bear the brunt of the joke. Most have the same punchline: Drummers are idiots. Take, for example, the following: "How do you tell if the stage is level? The drummer is drooling from both sides of his…

www.mic.com

 

[Chris Whitten]

Joedrum: your example speaks to #2 - your dad's circumstances speak to importance vs non-importance of formal learning and success in life (and success is relative, isn't it), the analogy being importance vs non-importance of learning to read music, which directly addresses OP's question. And you're right Joedrum - it ain't about intelligence. Glad you brought it up, Joedrum.

None of this is really relevant, and again you seem set on mischaracterising the opposing side of the debate.
Learning to read is a HELPFUL skill. It is also FREE. So why not take advantage?
Many people have fulfilling and successful lives despite a disadvantage. If it's a skill you can attain relatively easily and free of charge why wouldn't you? That is the debate.
Also, it has been shown in research that learning new skills helps to keep the brain healthy, ward off dementia.

 

[ZR2]

Reading - understanding the language in written form.
Listening - hearing the language spoken.

Ideally, both are important. You can have a great reader that can't hear for shit and vice versa. Both are good skills to have. I'm doing it backwards. I've always been a listener. I like to listen to music. I then try and figure out the parts by ear. I'm now slowly working towards reading drum parts. They're also useful when on the spot and someone needs you to play something right away. Something I could not do because I can't read fluently enough.

In my opinion learning the language and how to speak it is a great asset. Is it always necessary? No of course not. Vast majority of artists can't read music.

Depends on your goals.

 

[Rattlin' Bones]

None of this is really relevant, and again you seem set on mischaracterising the opposing side of the debate.
Learning to read is a HELPFUL skill. It is also FREE. So why not take advantage?
Many people have fulfilling and successful lives despite a disadvantage. If it's a skill you can attain relatively easily and free of charge why wouldn't you? That is the debate.
Also, it has been shown in research that learning new skills helps to keep the brain healthy, ward off dementia.

Sorry, Chris I'm just quoting you: The debate is whether you bother to learn a skill or not. That is reframing the discussion, and isn't what OP asked.

If we keep discussion around OP's question: what are your thoughts on the importance of reading vs learning by ear/feel then that is more useful. I certainly 1000% agree with you that it is useful, and in some cases mandatory.

 

[Rattlin' Bones]

Reading - understanding the language in written form.
Listening - hearing the language spoken.

Ideally, both are important. You can have a great reader that can't hear for shit and vice versa. Both are good skills to have. I'm doing it backwards. I've always been a listener. I like to listen to music. I then try and figure out the parts by ear. I'm now slowly working towards reading drum parts. They're also useful when on the spot and someone needs you to play something right away. Something I could not do because I can't read fluently enough.

In my opinion learning the language and how to speak it is a great asset. Is it always necessary? No of course not. Vast majority of artists can't read music.

Depends on your goals.

Depends on your goals. Yes that exactly.

 

[toddbishop]

Depends on your goals. Yes that exactly.

What goal does not being able to read help satisfy?

 

[JimmyM]

Sorry, Chris I'm just quoting you: The debate is whether you bother to learn a skill or not. That is reframing the discussion, and isn't what OP asked.

If we keep discussion around OP's question: what are your thoughts on the importance of reading vs learning by ear/feel then that is more useful. I certainly 1000% agree with you that it is useful, and in some cases mandatory.

I don’t get where this idea that it’s an either/or proposition comes from. I can read and sight read pretty well and I hear absolutely everything everyone is doing. Most people I know who can read are the best listeners I know. Both are acquired skills, reading makes listening easier and vice versa. Separating the two only occurs with non readers. The sooner you rid yourself of the idea that it’s either/or, the more you understand that each is beneficial to the other.