A possible 3/4 groove, Latin-ish

rhumbagirl

rhumbagirl

Senior Member
I love YouTube recommendations on my feed and so I took the bait and clicked this one:


It felt like a 3/4 groove although the channel author shared a 6/8 transcription with me:


6_8_groove.png

Now since drummers aren't just music boxes playing brail cylinders of assorted dots, anyone want to take a stab at the construction of this composition (in a 3/4 feel)? Maybe we should first place the sticking as a starting point. Then, noting this is a right-handed conventional drumset player, what are the dominant grooves and how is he playing with those to come up with the composition?

Code: 
|1.e.&.a.2.e.&.a.3.e.&.a.|1.e.&.a.2.e.&.a.3.e.&.a.|1.e.&.a.2.e.&.a.3.e.&.a.|
|R...R...R...........R...|..R...R...R..R..R.....R.|..R...R...R.R.R.R.R.R...|
|............R.L.R.L.....|........................|..L...L.................|
|..L.......L.............|L...L.L.....L.L...L.L...|........................|
|........................|........................|..........L.L.L.L.L.L...|
|K.....K.................|........................|........................|
                                      ^^^fast!
 
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You could meter that a number of ways. I hear it as 16ths in 3/4, too.

He plays the main groove in the first few bars. It starts with a linear thing in the first two measures-- BLRB, then switches to alternating singles.

The form is simple, 8 measure phrases, fills every two measures, longer fill at the end of the phrase, often ending over the barline.

The fills are mostly accented singles with a lot of movement with both hands, with embellishments, rhythmic tweaks. A few notes of linear bass drum. It all hangs off the alternating singles.
 
I added my code version for those that appreciate the spatial representation (above).

The second measure is of particular importance due to the left hand becoming dominant (lining up with the 8th notes more than the right hand). It feels like the third measure is a rescue bar with the simultaneous notes as if the author wasn't sure which hand he wanted to lead with, so he plays both. But it sounds good and embellishes the end of the phrase sufficiently.

EDIT: The most difficult part of the transcription is the R.LrL.R in the second bar, at least for a R-handed player. A great example of the R-hand version of that is the famous one-bar fill in Neil Peart's "YYZ": RlR.L.RlR.L.RlR.L.RlR.
 
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If you're playing this groove style 6/8 ....and you add another 3/8.... you can say it's 9/8... that's where you're feeling it as 3/4 and...if not mistaken... he does slip in that extra 3/8 like at :40 So that 3/8+3/8+3/8 Latin groove is felt as a "3" because it is.. (make sense ? no? oh well..

So what I would say to you ...is... get your 6/8 down..then expand it...with that extra 3/8.... and you'll see how easy it is to turn a "2" feel into a "3" 9/8 feel

there's a couple old jazz songs that help in the 6/8 "2" feel that should and can be absorbed the most famous is probably- That I'd want you to listen to (and absorb) :

Footprints Miles Davis from 1966/7
listen to all it's nuances and 'shifts

and a real simple one that will help:

if I can any rock drummer can learn to play that
 
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jda said:
If you're playing this groove style 6/8 ....and you add another 3/8.... you can say it's 9/8 that's where you're feeling it as 3/4
Click to expand...
3/4 in this context has straight 16ths subdivision, which is 12 notes per bar. 9/8 is 18 notes per bar and therefore not divisible by 4 to get to 3 (instead you get 4.5 quarter notes).

For Miles Davis "Footprints", the pulse is on beats 1 and 4 (in 6/8 meter). The pulse in kitschgroove's is on beats 1 and 5 (in 6/8 meter), or beats 1 and 3 in 3/4.
 
It's not 3/4 it's 3 feel which in the 6/8 Latin context (makes it) 9/8


But it's not the "Fusion" 9/8 (of say a 5+4 mix)
It's an 'easy loping '3' feel.
1 + da ..2 + da ..3 + da... repeated

Essentially "tacking another" beat on to a 6/8 "Latin" beat feel will give it the "3" feel"
 
rhumbagirl said:
9/8 is 18 notes per bar
Click to expand...
you are over-dividing it... 9/8 in this context..remains 9 simple 8ths
1 and da...2 and da...3 and da.. repeated,,

a "3" feel
 
he's playing a lot of of 3 over 4 within the sixteenths, which is confusing the feel;

get the essential down and you can put your own improvisation on top of it
like he's doing
you can 'bottom bass drum quarter note pulse' this feel in, 2,3,4,5,6,7 it's endless
once you start tangling 3 and 4, 3 over 4, 4 over 3.. on top of it with the hands ... it's infinity

He's not really giving you a good lesson there, he just showing his "sparks"..
Sorry it's confusing
 
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Yeah I think he's messing with you calling that 6/8. Here are the first two measures of the groove (after the opening fill), written in 3/4 and 6/8:

dw-rhumba-girl-thing.png

It sits naturally in 3, and doesn't make any sense in 6/8, with the 2 buried like that.

That's natural sticking there-- RH on all the downbeats, LH on all the es and as. Very compatible with plain old alternating16ths.

rhumbagirl said:
The second measure is of particular importance due to the left hand becoming dominant (lining up with the 8th notes more than the right hand). It feels like the third measure is a rescue bar with the simultaneous notes as if the author wasn't sure which hand he wanted to lead with, so he plays both. But it sounds good and embellishes the end of the phrase sufficiently.

EDIT: The most difficult part of the transcription is the R.LrL.R in the second bar, at least for a R-handed player. A great example of the R-hand version of that is the famous one-bar fill in Neil Peart's "YYZ": RlR.L.RlR.L.RlR.L.RlR.
Click to expand...

Don't overcomplicate it. The RH leads through basically 100% of it. First, it's a lot of alternating 16ths with a lot of hand movement, with that bass drum rhythm anchoring it.

I would discard that transcription altogether, and look at the broader principles. If a student brought this to me I would approach it like:

1. Learn the basic groove as above.
2. Play alternating 16th in 3, move both hands around the drums and cymbals. Including the BD rhythm, or add it later.
3. Add dynamics.
4. Check out the embellishments, broad fill ideas:
-several 32nd note singles early on-- three notes or five notes.
- 16th triplets, one or two.
- mixed 16th stickings-- 1-2 diddles, longer RH lead fill w/mixed sticking
- flammed 16ths-- just one flam
- some things with both hands in unison.
5. Check out where he starts the fills, and where/how he ends the fills.
6. Check out what's happening generally with the spaces-- how did he get there, when/how did he get out of it.
7. Figure out the specific funny rhythmic things he does.
 
I count 4 mistakes he makes in the first :38 seconds
(timing,.
17,25,29,:33
he doesn't have this under control at all;
it's new to him too (lol..
he's wingin' and almost falling off his bike
 
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jda said:
I count 4 mistakes he makes in the first :38 seconds
(timing,.
17,25,29,:33
he doesn't have this under control at all;
it's new to him too (lol..
Click to expand...

Seems deliberate enough to me. @0:28 is the weirdest thing, but that first SD/cym note is on the a of the beat, the other two notes fall on the last two 8th triplet partials. Listen closer there.

jda said:
he's wingin' and almost falling off his bike
Click to expand...

Hey, if you're not almost falling off you're not trying, lol. Awesome guy is flawlessly awesome isn't a very interesting story, let's make some drama.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: jda
he's not falling off from experience; it was a shaky unsuredness
you Todd said he was messing with Op
I'd rather recommend deep dive listening to Tony to Idris to
Ed Blackwell
 
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jda said:
he's not falling off from experience;
you Todd said he was messing with Op
I'd rather recommend deep dive listening to Tony to Idris and to
Ed Blackwell
Click to expand...

It seems like a good example of what it is, I could be wrong, maybe he's trying to do something other than what he's doing, and failing.

True though, I don't know why he would call that 6/8, unless he's got a click in his ear and is laying 3 over it.
 
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First, I didn't follow jda's comments on 9/8 and groupings of 3 simple 8ths.

Then Todd's transcription is notably different from klitschgroove's original that I posted. I'll take a closer look to it, but I thought the point was to analyze the original, which clearly has weak-hand lead on the second bar, with a very demanding lick for weak-hand.

I like Todd's general perspective of:
(a) alternating 16ths
(b) apply dynamics to the 3/4 feel
(c) apply linear playing by injecting the kick (ie, inject another limb with the same dominance)

I don't know how any of this applies to those who are ambidextrous, where no dominance exists. Sorry in that respect. Or better, congratulations for those so gifted who don't have to worry about these things.
 
rhumbagirl said:
First, I didn't follow jda's comments on 9/8 and groupings of 3 simple 8ths.

Then Todd's transcription is notably different from klitschgroove's original that I posted.
Click to expand...

That's just one lick that happens @ 1:29, what I wrote is the main groove, which you hear at the beginning of the video.

rhumbagirl said:
I'll take a closer look to it, but I thought the point was to analyze the original, which clearly has weak-hand lead on the second bar, with a very demanding lick for weak-hand.
Click to expand...

The left hand is on the cymbal, it doesn't have anything to do with dominance-- like what's the sticking going to be here:

1717941187757.png

RLRB-L RLRLRR (the ending cym note is a typo, there's too many notes in the measure, and he doesn't play it in the video)

B = both hands in unison

rhumbagirl said:
I like Todd's general perspective of:
(a) alternating 16ths
(b) apply dynamics to the 3/4 feel
(c) apply linear playing by injecting the kick (ie, inject another limb with the same dominance)
Click to expand...

What I meant was to add the bass drum in the rhythm he plays in the video, and in my transcription. Nothing to do with dominance.

rhumbagirl said:
I don't know how any of this applies to those who are ambidextrous, where no dominance exists. Sorry in that respect. Or better, congratulations for those so gifted who don't have to worry about these things.
Click to expand...

There's really nothing ambidextrous happening here, he's just moving his left hand to the cymbal and playing the same stuff.
 
In terms of the 6/8 vs. 3/4 thing...I personally believe he is simply mistaken. I really don't think it goes any deeper than that.

The confusion between 6/8 and 3/4 is one of the most common confusions in all of music. People frequently think (and sometimes say) that 6/8 and 3/4 are the same thing because they both have 6 eighth notes. In reality, one of them is "compound duple" and the other is "simple triple." So they really have very little in common...although having the same number of 8th notes does lead to some cool possibilities for switching between them or playing them against each other.

One of my teachers (who will remain nameless) told me that he viewed 4/4 and 2/2 as the same, and he therefore counted them the same. I assume this was another case where the person was simply looking at the mathematical total of notes. I shudder to think what would have happened if he had played an old-school Broadway show where much of the music is in 2/2 and there's a conductor. Yikes.
 
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