4-Way Coordination Book - Have you used it? Was it beneficial? Any advice?

Bewildered Beast

Bewildered Beast

Member
I recently borrowed this book by Dahlgren & Fine from the library and have been working on a few pages.

I've been surprised how tricky some of the exercises have seemed to me. I've only been playing for 3 years so I'm used to most things being tricky, but some of the patterns really wrench you out of the usual hand and foot combinations that you typically play when playing beats.

That said, I like it - I feel like my brain is being rewired in lots of new ways.

I'm interested to find out for those who've used it, how do you think it helped your playing or any tips on the best way to use (go through the exercises in order, pick and choose from different sections in the book etc).

Groove on brothers and sisters.

Cheers.
 
So few people actually use that book because it’s so difficult. It’s really good and REALLY difficult

I’ve tried often on for years and never make it past the first couple of pages. I think the story that’s been handed down is Tony Williams processed everything there in about six or eight months. Maybe not all of the book, but a considerable part of it I suspect.
 
OHD said:
Todd Bishop has written extensively about the book on his blog, check it out at http://www.cruiseshipdrummer.com/search/label/4-Way Coordination
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link there-- I should wrap all that up. The book isn't designed for practical usefulness or ease of learning. You can waste a lot of time just drilling it at face value like it's Stick Control.

-- There are a lot of good individual 3/4/6/8 note patterns in the melodic and harmonic exercises-- pp. 4-6, 10, 15-18, 20.

-- The various solos throughout the book are kind of useless.

-- The jazz section-- pp. 32-48-- is worthwhile, for jazz.

-- Ignore the tempo markings, they're ridiculous.

-- The "harmonic" coordination exercises-- pp. 15-18, 20-- are the most interesting part to me, but they're endless, hard to read, and not well organized for learning them quickly.

For that part, I suggest:
-- hit a cymbal when playing in unison with the RF/bass drum
-- hit the snare when playing in unison with the LF/hihat.

So both hands will be moving between cymbals and the the snare drum. It makes it harder, but it's more like real drumming.

I've written a bunch about how to tackle that section in that link.
 
It is a good book in many ways. It was a doorway for me into linear drumming, and directly led to one of my own projects. However, it is quite dated, and not without flaws, as @toddbishop says.

The tempo markings are odd, and the vocabulary is a little unidiomatic in places, though I suppose that is the point. I found the melodic section the more interesting, though the harmonic section is more difficult and perphaps more beneficial as far as raw coordination goes, simply because of how unfamiliar it all is.

It's essentially a dictionary. That's not a bad thing, but you don't learn a language with a dictionary.
 
Thank you all for your considered and sometimes philosophical advice (You don't learn a language with a dictionary).

I have also found the melodic/linear section more interesting.

I find the exercises hard the same way I find stretching hard, but in both cases I feel that it will loosen me up and hopefully make more things possible, so I think I will persevere with it a while longer.
 
Frankly, I think The New Breed is much more useful in actual playing scenarios.
 
One thing I would suggest is that you can practice the melodic patterns in groups of four notes (2 beats at a time), and then later 8 notes (1 bar) before you bother with practicing the whole two bar patterns (I think I read or heard an interview with Dahlgren where he suggested that himself, and said he probably should have suggested it in the book). This allows you to really get a grasp on all groupings of 4 notes (distributed between two or more limbs) and their permutations. Similarly, with the triplet melodic section, you can just focus on each triplet (3 note) pattern at a time before you combine them. Also, if you're practicing a 4 note or 3 note pattern, you can add an ostinato with any limbs that aren't used in the pattern: for example, if it's a triplet pattern of LH-LH-RF, you could play the jazz ride pattern with the right hand, and 2 & 4 on the hi-hat. Or if it's RH-LF-RH, you could feather the bass drum on all quarters, etc. Also, you could play both hands together for any 3 or 4 note pattern with all RH or all LH strokes. You could also take a similar approach with brushes; i.e., playing a left hand sweep on the snare on any unit that doesn't include the left hand. This way of approaching the material is a little reminiscent of how Gary Chaffee lays things out in his Time Functioning Patterns book.

One other suggestion would be to apply the triplet patterns as 8th notes or as 16th notes, again just starting with one triplet (3 note pattern) at a time. This would help to develop your ability to phrase over the bar line.
 
It's kind of a graduate study book, IMO. I studied it with Elliott Fine. Get your basic grooves and rudiments down before getting into it. What it does for you is to open up your creativity--especially through integrating hands and feet as one unit. Elvin regarded the set, not as four seperate drums, but as one instrument. Four Way opens channels in you mind you never thought of exploring. And it will enable you to find better ideas in your style. No one--and I mean no one--I knew ever mastered even half of that book. If you learn even first page of every section of the book, you will gain from it. Also, the written tempos are typos. In fact the book is loaded with typos and mispellings. Don't worry about it. And use it creatively. Dahgren and Fine lay out the patterns; it's up to you to choose where to play them.
 
toddbishop said:
Thanks for the link there-- I should wrap all that up. The book isn't designed for practical usefulness or ease of learning. You can waste a lot of time just drilling it at face value like it's Stick Control.

-- There are a lot of good individual 3/4/6/8 note patterns in the melodic and harmonic exercises-- pp. 4-6, 10, 15-18, 20.

-- The various solos throughout the book are kind of useless.

-- The jazz section-- pp. 32-48-- is worthwhile, for jazz.

-- Ignore the tempo markings, they're ridiculous.

-- The "harmonic" coordination exercises-- pp. 15-18, 20-- are the most interesting part to me, but they're endless, hard to read, and not well organized for learning them quickly.

For that part, I suggest:
-- hit a cymbal when playing in unison with the RF/bass drum
-- hit the snare when playing in unison with the LF/hihat.

So both hands will be moving between cymbals and the the snare drum. It makes it harder, but it's more like real drumming.

I've written a bunch about how to tackle that section in that link.
Click to expand...
Nice ideas and breakdown on your blog Todd. What benefits to your own playing have you seen from the extended work you’ve done with this book?

Personally I never liked it. I worked with it a bit when I was in high school and college. I “got” sone of it but it is a “Himalayan” effort as you said. I put it in the same category as “The New Breed” (more musical) or “Inner Drumming” (which I like a lot). Carter McLean’s book also seems in this wheelhouse of conceptual “flow” books designed to break habits and open pathways of movement. Ultimately the work has to manifest in actual playing. Inner Drumming seems to do that for me. If I work on one or two exercises before the gig I feel more connected right away. Ideas are more easily executed precisely. But then again Wilcoxon or the Rudimental Ritual can do that too.
 
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Multijd said:
Nice ideas and breakdown on your blog Todd. What benefits to your own playing have you seen from the extended work you’ve done with this book?
Click to expand...

It's been good for developing better ways of doing the thing it's supposed to be about, lol. From that harmonic section I developed something very basic that I now do with students of all levels, including very early beginners. That has evolved into a good way of teaching fills.

The real playing benefits are not real tangible. There are better ways of learning it's closest real-life vocabulary, an ECM-type feel. It does make it easier to learn other hard materials. And it conditions your left foot. Doing it the way I described above makes your left hand especially more mobile. Helps you make unexpected/unplanned moves, more solidly. To learn that part of the book you can't be thinking from the downbeat all the time, so it changes your perspective on rhythm a little bit. And I think it busts you out of some ingrained patterns, if you're used to always doing things a certain way at that drums.

None of it has to do with the "complete independence" advertised, I that's kind of a false concept.
 
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