How fast can you hear? (Jojo Mayer)

Swiss Matthias

Swiss Matthias

Platinum Member
I hope I'm allowed to quote Jojo Mayer from his DVD here:

"As I often hear the question about how fast can you play, I wanna ask you the
question "How fast can you hear?" I believe that the ability to hear a musical
thought in your head before or as you play it is paramount to create and express
music. And without a musical idea there's no need for technique to execute it.
Technique without music is just exercise. In other words, you'll only be able to
play as fast musically as fast as you can also hear! Everything faster is not
you - it's just your hands."

I really like and subscribe to what he says, and I thought maybe it would
be interesting to have it discussed on the forum?
 
I completely understand him on this one, and its good that he has given a name to something Ive been struggling with for ages. Does he advise of any ways of developing this as a skill?
 
I have interest. I over-think & analyse things often, I find when playing drums (especially improv) that I play at my best when I try to free my mind of other thoughts & concentrate solely on the drums & most importantly, the music. I never really think about the technique or sticking that I need to employ whilst playing, except when I am specifically practising for that reason. I personally think my ideas & reasons for playing (in relation to the music) are at a higher level than my execution (technique).
This is probably a smoke screen/excuse for my technique being at a lower level than it should be :) Sorry if I totally missed the point.
 
Not really - although it presumably comes with experience.

I always ask pros (when I get the chance - this includes Benny Greb) what are you thinking and how far ahead are you planning. The answer invariable is nothing and I don't.

So, spontaneity seems to prevail. I know that a bar before executing say a 1/16 note fill it is wise to start counting in that subdivision. If the fill is 1/32 then I guess you can only count in groups of 2 or 4 or 6 depending on the time signature.

It's a damn good question. I occasionally play 1/24ths instead of 1/32ths but then I'm just an intermediate player!

Davo
 
I respect Mr Mayer and his answer is fine when we're talking about consciously playing a planned piece, but the sub-conscious playing (stream of consciousness) doesn't fit into the answer neatly.

I often hear improvised things back and think "how the f*** did I play that?".... it wasn't planned - and is hard to measure.
 
onedevilsst said:
Does he advise of any ways of developing this as a skill?
Click to expand...
Yes, he has an exercise: Play alternating 16th notes to the metronome. Take away the left hand, you get eight notes. Then play both again. Then take away the right hand, so you play 16th note syncopes. Don't play the pulse in any kind of way (no hihat foot, no foot tapping) so you're only relying to the metronome with your ear.
Then do the same thing with sextuplets and 32nd notes. And of course vary the tempo. The point where you can't execute the syncopes anymore is your "hearing speed" limit.
 
Hercules said:
I respect Mr Mayer and his answer is fine when we're talking about consciously playing a planned piece, but the sub-conscious playing (stream of consciousness) doesn't fit into the answer neatly.

I often hear improvised things back and think "how the f*** did I play that?".... it wasn't planned - and is hard to measure.
Click to expand...
I don't agree. For improvising you have to hear what you do even more so! I don't think Jojo was talking about kind of sub-conscious playing where you play some random, and maybe it sounds cool by chance.
Since we play with other musicians, there's always a chance that something we play in a more improvising situation doesn't fit the whole. So I'd rather know what I'm doing at least, otherwise how could I fit my playing to the other instruments?

Besides, Jojo is just talking about the inner ear being able to follow what you're playing. If it doesn't anymore because it's too fast, chances are that the playing won't be tight and in the grooveanymore. That's why he says it's not you anymore, but just your hands.
 
Swiss Matthias said:
I don't agree. For improvising you have to hear what you do even more so! I don't think Jojo was talking about kind of sub-conscious playing where you play some random, and maybe it sounds cool by chance.
Click to expand...

But if you "hear" what you are going to do that means it is very pre-meditated and not "using the force Luke" in a more freely improvised manner. I don't mean random playing but rather the type of playing that comes after achieving comfort with your instrument and the music whereby you don't have to plan ahead but just groove and the notes come "in the moment". That's my version of the situation anyway.....
 
My interpretation is not so much about improvising or playing something planned but more about hearing the subdivisions no matter what you are playing. Of course I could be totally off base on this one.

Peter Erskine describes the same concept with the simplest jazz pattern, quarters on the ride and bass drum, rim click on 4, something almost anyone can play. Hearing the skip note in your head is what makes it swing or groove. The same thing applys when playing an eighth note groove by hearing the upbeats that may or may not be played. It's the difference between not to bad and holy s**t, that really grooves!

This is something I need more of in my own playing.
 
A lot of people commenting seem to be missing why he said it, I think anyway. I doubt the guy thinks about it when he improvises! It was just something to help him play whatever he wants, whenever he wants. Its just like any exercise be it comping or whatever. Its just something thats good to be able to do, like playing parrididdles between your left hand and right foot while playing the jazz ride pattern, when you're able to play it, you're no longer saying to yourself "parr-a-diddle-parr-a-diddle"
 
What is meant by it can be demonstrated greatly with the book Rhythm & Meter Patterns by Gary Chaffee.
Anybody worked through that? He has exercises in different subdivisions, using rests of the same length.
Meaning ie. an exercise consisting entirely of sextuplets, and completely filled with either sixteenth note triplets
or accordingly sixteenth note triplet rests.

In order to read and, more importantly, play an exercise like that fast, you have to hear it fast! If your ear
doesn't follow fast sixtuplet subdivisions (Chaffee's suggested tempo in that exact exercise would be 96 bpm),
you're not going to be able to keep the tempo, lose pulse and therefore it'll be impossible to play various notes
inside the subdivision.

I find that to be great exercises (I recommend the book!), and I think Jojo's words are very true, and very wise.
 
Hercules said:
But if you "hear" what you are going to do that means it is very pre-meditated and not "using the force Luke" in a more freely improvised manner.
Click to expand...

Hearing is just the word for how musical ideas come to you. The idea is not to map everything out intellectually in advance, or "pre-hear" it, it's to have a musical impetus behind everything you play. The process is actually very (or purely?) intuitive, and can happen almost instantaneously. Hal Galper also talks about this same concept.
 
Swiss Matthias said:
Anybody worked through that?
Click to expand...

Trying, man, trying. The compound figures are killer! The "fast hearing" exercises found in Secret Weapons are a good start, but the Chaffee stuff is on another planet, and will really take your inner clock to the next level!

I think Mayer is just trying to promote the awareness of the subdivisions on your playing, somewhat in response to the recently popular "speed freak" drumming culture. Being a fast player with gorgeous technique himself, it's a big statement to make.
 
Before i start to play a new song... I basically turn up the volume of my speakers (good ones)
then i lay down on the floor (with a pillow if i want it comfy) and listen to music.. Feél it, make it you.. Kinda be 1 unit with it... or something really creepy like that.. But it really makes a difference (i imagine) If you hear some african music.. some world thingy. You can almost feel some scary ritual going on to the next of you. You want to open your eyes but can't... CREEPY... tried it once.. My instructor said i should :O!
 
I recently commented on this disc and watched it again last night (3rd time in 6 days) and I think possibly when he made that comment he may have been talking 60/40 about drum solo's. Thinking in advance what you are going to play otherwise it would have to be fresh material that you were attempting with a group and presumably original material.
 
I can't remember what exactly Jojo says on the DVD, but I've heard similar advice from other drummers. Notably Ari Hoenig said that it's really important to be able to hear offbeats very clearly and be able to verbalise or clap them at all reasonable speeds - he got me to practice putting the metronome click at different subdivisions instead of on the downbeat to get more familiar hearing these for triplets and 16th notes. It doesn't sound like such a big deal until you actually try doing this stuff - and at reasonably fast tempos too. When he gave examples he really can hear and control what's going on 'within' the beat and it gives insight into how people have such control over feel and timing. This is something a lot of people talk about, and I'd practiced at low tempos - but I think Jojo is talking about translating the same to higher tempos, which is something that definitely requires a lot of practice. Ari could sit and casually clap offbeat 16th notes along to a metronome on the downbeat so fast i made my head spin!

It's a similar idea to verbalising things by saying ta-ke-de-mi. Taiko drummers have a proverb, "if you can hear it, you can play it"... I think a lot of us play things without hearing it clearly, but if we could 'hear' it then it'd sound much tighter!!
 
That's a great quote. I remember thinking he was also talking about the ability to process the rhythms happening at great speeds. I.e., when Vinnie reefs a lick some hear a flurry of notes and others hear the exact 32nd note rhythm that he's playing. Rudimental playing will definitely sharpen your awareness of fast & complex rhythms.
 
Swiss Matthias said:
I hope I'm allowed to quote Jojo Mayer from his DVD here:

"As I often hear the question about how fast can you play, I wanna ask you the
question "How fast can you hear?" I believe that the ability to hear a musical
thought in your head before or as you play it is paramount to create and express
music. And without a musical idea there's no need for technique to execute it.
Technique without music is just exercise. In other words, you'll only be able to
play as fast musically as fast as you can also hear! Everything faster is not
you - it's just your hands."

I really like and subscribe to what he says, and I thought maybe it would
be interesting to have it discussed on the forum?
Click to expand...

I've had teachers who advised me to have really big ears, and that's pretty much what Jojo is saying too. Although my ability in this was more determined by how much I could hear what was going on around me and reacting to it. Not so much that I hear an idea and can execute it. But I think having the ability is good. I've been in enough situations where I'm just reacting to what's going on around me and luckily have been able to keep up with the other players.
 
BillBachman said:
That's a great quote. I remember thinking he was also talking about the ability to process the rhythms happening at great speeds. I.e., when Vinnie reefs a lick some hear a flurry of notes and others hear the exact 32nd note rhythm that he's playing. Rudimental playing will definitely sharpen your awareness of fast & complex rhythms.
Click to expand...

That's very true, Bill! Strangely enough, I can actually kind of see the notes fly by in my head as I hear them...
 
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