Your perception of YouTube/IG/TikTok drummers

[BenOBrienSmith]

I read through this whole thread yesterday evening and decided not to revive it unless someone followed up. Since a couple posts went up today, I'm sharing what I drafted. To be clear, this isn't directed at any one person.

I've got a LOT of thoughts on this as I straddle both sides of the industry and, via SLaD, have some degree of influencer status while also advising brands on their use of players for marketing in a variety of scenarios. On top of that, I haven't prioritized live performance in a while but people see my hands all over demos of products and probably don't have any idea who I am. If anyone questioned the validity of my career, I'd probably laugh at first but then feel sorry for them.

It really bums me out to see people judging the validity of someone else's approach to drumming, whether they're earning some income with it or not. Being insecure or lacking some confidence, especially when you're navigating your own career in what the vast majority of people would consider to be a non-traditional path, is natural. Feeding that insecurity by judging others is incredibly unhealthy. There are so many toxic assumptions in this thread about the goals of the people being judged, not to mention the context not visible beyond the tip of the iceberg. Despite the fact that many of us would acknowledge that we're all far more than who we appear to be online, there's still a natural instinct to think that we know enough to make a judgement call about someone based on what we see from them online.

Not everyone's goals are the same. What someone finds joy in may bore the hell out of you or maybe vice versa. Not everyone wants to play in a band or have to cart their gear around or deal with all of the personalities involved in live performance. Some people are physically unable to do this. Others are mentally unable. If they've figured out something that brings them joy without causing harm, who is anyone to judge? If they've managed to make a career out of that, can't we be happy for them? Using your personal yardstick to qualify someone's application of drumming against your own expectations is a pretty unhealthy mindset. This gets into comparing yourself to others based on what you see and feeling the need to call into question their success vs. yours. The ongoing labeling and othering of people is so incredibly toxic.

I see a lot of fear and narrow-minded bitterness, especially from more seasoned professionals in this industry, about how (often younger) players are pursing their own musical journey. There seems to be this idea that everyone should need to struggle a bit, pay their dues, and grow through it. When that's not done publicly and juxtaposed with the success of the individual there's the assumption that it didn't happen. There's quite a bit of entitlement out there as well. This relates to the gigs people get hired for, the brand deals they establish, the degree of influence they have, etc. If you find yourself falling into these habits, I strongly recommend some therapy and self reflection.

 

[doggyd69b]

I provided 2 examples of people who could play in bands because they have the chops. 66Samus and Steve Tereberry, both successful YouTubers and recognized artists. Samus chooses to do recordings for other artists or anyone who wants to hire him, and a few had including Devin Townsend. Steve has over 2 million subscribers and several companies providing him with gear for him to promote. Both are clearly making a living playing music without playing gigs or being in a band. I say why measure someone's success based on your assumptions of success? both of them are more successful than 90% of the people hating on them here. I also mentioned other people but they mostly play guitar so I guess it doesn't count if they don't play drums....

 

[2 hit wonder]

Hate?

 

[ravenson]

I read through this whole thread yesterday evening and decided not to revive it unless someone followed up. Since a couple posts went up today, I'm sharing what I drafted. To be clear, this isn't directed at any one person.

I've got a LOT of thoughts on this as I straddle both sides of the industry and, via SLaD, have some degree of influencer status while also advising brands on their use of players for marketing in a variety of scenarios. On top of that, I haven't prioritized live performance in a while but people see my hands all over demos of products and probably don't have any idea who I am. If anyone questioned the validity of my career, I'd probably laugh at first but then feel sorry for them.

It really bums me out to see people judging the validity of someone else's approach to drumming, whether they're earning some income with it or not. Being insecure or lacking some confidence, especially when you're navigating your own career in what the vast majority of people would consider to be a non-traditional path, is natural. Feeding that insecurity by judging others is incredibly unhealthy. There are so many toxic assumptions in this thread about the goals of the people being judged, not to mention the context not visible beyond the tip of the iceberg. Despite the fact that many of us would acknowledge that we're all far more than who we appear to be online, there's still a natural instinct to think that we know enough to make a judgement call about someone based on what we see from them online.

Not everyone's goals are the same. What someone finds joy in may bore the hell out of you or maybe vice versa. Not everyone wants to play in a band or have to cart their gear around or deal with all of the personalities involved in live performance. Some people are physically unable to do this. Others are mentally unable. If they've figured out something that brings them joy without causing harm, who is anyone to judge? If they've managed to make a career out of that, can't we be happy for them? Using your personal yardstick to qualify someone's application of drumming against your own expectations is a pretty unhealthy mindset. This gets into comparing yourself to others based on what you see and feeling the need to call into question their success vs. yours. The ongoing labeling and othering of people is so incredibly toxic.

I see a lot of fear and narrow-minded bitterness, especially from more seasoned professionals in this industry, about how (often younger) players are pursing their own musical journey. There seems to be this idea that everyone should need to struggle a bit, pay their dues, and grow through it. When that's not done publicly and juxtaposed with the success of the individual there's the assumption that it didn't happen. There's quite a bit of entitlement out there as well. This relates to the gigs people get hired for, the brand deals they establish, the degree of influence they have, etc. If you find yourself falling into these habits, I strongly recommend some therapy and self reflection.

One picture is worth a thousand words , one touch is worth a thousand pictures .

You are correct , not everyone's goals are/were the same .

Sleeping in converted school buses , dodgey aquaintances , humping gear , not eating right , psychotic women , bounced cheques and a whole lot more .... that kind of life is not a predictably safe space . Though not necessarily musical by nature, in the right hands these experiences can be a deep source of inspired songwriting .

 

[Chris Whitten]

If they've figured out something that brings them joy without causing harm, who is anyone to judge? If they've managed to make a career out of that, can't we be happy for them? Using your personal yardstick to qualify someone's application of drumming against your own expectations is a pretty unhealthy mindset. This gets into comparing yourself to others based on what you see and feeling the need to call into question their success vs. yours. The ongoing labeling and othering of people is so incredibly toxic.

Sure, the only caveat I gave was YouTubers giving career advice or teaching certain techniques. I think you learn and grow from being in tough, demanding situations. I have watched some heavily subscribed YouTube videos on perennial topics like "what pros won't tell you" etc and the information they are giving out is often inaccurate and naive.
The problem arises when people start to believe this misinformation BECAUSE the videos are so popular and the YouTuber has so many subscribers.
As far as anyone making a living on social media, or just posting videos on Youtube or Tik-Tok, I am 100% ok with it. When I work with companies they want to promote their products through very popular social media influencers..... I totally understand that and I'm 100% ok with it too.
I have dabbled in Youtube and am not prepared to sacrifice many hours a day, often 6-7 days a week to try and make a success of it. So props to those that have put in the hard work to get where they are.

 

[Chris Whitten]

I see a lot of fear and narrow-minded bitterness, especially from more seasoned professionals in this industry, about how (often younger) players are pursing their own musical journey. There seems to be this idea that everyone should need to struggle a bit, pay their dues, and grow through it. When that's not done publicly and juxtaposed with the success of the individual there's the assumption that it didn't happen. There's quite a bit of entitlement out there as well. This relates to the gigs people get hired for, the brand deals they establish, the degree of influence they have, etc. If you find yourself falling into these habits, I strongly recommend some therapy and self reflection.

I can only speak for myself when I say you are making it sound way more sinister than it actually is.
I talk to professionals all the time and they often admire the best social media music stars. They'll admit they wouldn't want to go down that road themselves. No one who has made a couple of hit albums expects to be a YouTube star, or expects a drum company to treat them better, or even the same as someone with 1 million subscribers. Professionals know how the industry works.
Where I live they get ex-professional footballers to comment on the game. Journalists are not excluded, but there is more weight put on someone who went through the highs and lows of actually doing the job. I put more weight on someone giving recording or gigging advice on whether they've had to learn some difficult lessons along the way. You aren't under the same creative pressure if you do everything at home on your own terms.
That doesn't mean I don't appreciate a YouTuber filming great performances at home, or teaching rudiments etc.

 

[Chris Whitten]

Speaking personally...
I have no desire to dedicate my life to Youtube or Instagram.
I have had my career highlights over 40 years and don't want or need to be compared to a YouTuber or Tik-Tokker.
I'm happy for their success.

 

[doggyd69b]

Sure, the only caveat I gave was YouTubers giving career advice or teaching certain techniques. I think you learn and grow from being in tough, demanding situations. I have watched some heavily subscribed YouTube videos on perennial topics like "what pros won't tell you" etc and the information they are giving out is often inaccurate and naive.
The problem arises when people start to believe this misinformation BECAUSE the videos are so popular and the YouTuber has so many subscribers.
As far as anyone making a living on social media, or just posting videos on Youtube or Tik-Tok, I am 100% ok with it. When I work with companies they want to promote their products through very popular social media influencers..... I totally understand that and I'm 100% ok with it too.
I have dabbled in Youtube and am not prepared to sacrifice many hours a day, often 6-7 days a week to try and make a success of it. So props to those that have put in the hard work to get where they are.

In some of those cases you may have to follow the redneck mantra of "it ain't stupid if it works"
for example: if someone would have told me back in the 80's that I had to slide my feet side to side on the pedal in order to accomplish very fast double bass with much less effort, I would have looked at them as if they were crazy and thought that they were speaking nonsense. Same for the one handed drum roll (known now as a gravity blast). I have learned quite a bit from "YouTube" drummers that probably have never played outside of their studio so no, not everything is misinformation.

Drumming is one of those things were one size fits all is not applicable at all.

Going back to swivel technique. I find it very easy to adapt to it but there are a lot of people who just can't do it.
I'm learning, or better said developing the heel toe technique which I learned from an unknown YouTuber that had about 100 subscribers and even less views, but the reason I chose his video was because it explained the technique in a very short video and didn't use fancy camera shots that most of the time get in the way, or that his video was not correctly lit which also gets in the way, no, it was it's simplicity and that it was actually easy to see what he was doing unlike others who showed the technique at full speed and you can't really see what is happening so how can you learn that?

Example of gravity blast video:

Maybe some people need to change the way they see YouTubers, maybe they need to go in with the mindset of "What can I learn from this person?"
If the answer is "Nothing" then he must be the best drummer in the world and we might need to learn from him.

Even if someone is putting out "wrong" information, the true "correct" information always will prevail.

For example "Learn how to play super fast double bass in one month" which is true and false at the same time...
Yes you can Learn how to play super fast... even in one day...
No, you can't actually play super fast unless you spend some time (longer than a month) practicing.

That is what I see that bothers me, when someone preaches "life hacks" which are completely false and neglect to disclose the fact that it in fact took them much longer to develop that technique. I see that as misinformation, and it bothers me because that usually leads to people giving up because they get frustrated when they are not able to see immediate results. (We know how people now need instant gratification and participation trophies) so, that is when misinformation is hurtful to others.

About companies using those "influencers" to promote their products... well they don't care how well someone can play they care how much exposure that person can give their product which leads to actual sales.
A good example of a mediocre drummer that got sponsor and tons of subscribers:

Now at almost 3 million subscribers... He definitely makes a living with those numbers.

 

[2 hit wonder]

I really only gravity blast with my left. The right can do it but it's just automatic with the left.

Oh, and the true information doesn't win out. On some things it does, but if it frightens people's norms, no.

Twain is attributed to saying, It's easier to fool people than it is to get them to accept that they've been fooled.

 

[Chris Whitten]

Again, sure.... I don't generally watch YouTuber drumming videos, but they come up randomly in my feed every week. I DO start to watch with an open mind. When someone is playing a cover song and their bass drum isn't the same as the one on the record, and it actually clashes with the bass part on the track.... and someone hits a crash cymbal every four bars and plays numerous splashes because they are not listening to the music.....yeah, I don't think I'm going to learn anything. Sorry.
I don't actually comment on their videos, so no one is hurt.
The one time I commented was when a very popular Youtube drummer posted clips of amateurs in drum shops playing badly, so he could point out what they were doing wrong. I actually posted he could have made his educational point without humiliating a bunch of ordinary drummers without their consent.
The chopmeister videos? Good on them, they have incredible skill and technique. I'm probably not going to learn anything because I'm at the end of my career and am known for playing simple parts. I'm not jealous of them. If asked (which we were on page one), I'd say it's hard to fit stick twirls, crazy fast bass drum, and incredible complex fills into MOST popular music (not all). That's just my opinion. I'm not stopping them from making those videos or criticising the videos.
My personal hunch (again, an opinion) is that if they played on some records and on tour with a band, they would probably get asked to tone down the flash quite soon. As Larry Mullen jr once rightly said, as soon as you play arenas and stadiums your drumming simplifies, the fast complex playing just doesn't translate to big, boomy spaces.

 

[doggyd69b]

I really only gravity blast with my left. The right can do it but it's just automatic with the left.

Oh, and the true information doesn't win out. On some things it does, but if it frightens people's norms, no.

Twain is attributed to saying, It's easier to fool people than it is to get them to accept that they've been fooled.

If someone is perseverant enough, eventually he/she is going to discover the truth. Also you are correct, nobody is willingly going to accept they were fooled.

Not gravity blast related but stick holding related, the guy in the video below is playing metal but using a ..Jazz stick holding technique, that to me is very unnatural (yes I can play using it, I can play at the same speed too but it is not comfortable at all). going back to the drumming not being a one size fits all.

 

[2 hit wonder]

Lulz he's ghost noting on the snare.
Whew, I couldn't cope with that music.
The keyboard just adds noise and why Dream Theater got put on a shelf in this house.

Added: I guess it's the guitar listening on another device. Yes, great execution. The music is not pleasing.

 

[Chris Whitten]

the guy in the video below is playing metal

Excellent playing, but I can't listen to that music so have no interest in the video whatsoever.
This forum member (at Drummerworld?) greatly impressed me:

This guy has 400,000 subscribers. Every time I see one of his videos it's gold, full of great real world info. I'm not learning a ton because I already learned most of these lessons myself, through mistakes and failure:

 

[2 hit wonder]

Excellent playing, but I can't listen to that music so have no interest in the video whatsoever.
This forum member (at Drummerworld?) greatly impressed me:

Solid playing. No complaints on overplaying or being overpowering. It's not inspiring to me in regards to playing, personally. Support to him if he's on DWorld. Hope he gets hired.
I wonder if he tuned the snare specifically for that song, because it sounds like I'd avoid that tuning. My Dyna-sonic for the last gigs and practice started out that way or worked loose to that sound and had to be fixed between songs.
Tune the bottom head up.

 

[Chris Whitten]

The snare sounds good to me. Maybe it isn't an 'inspiring' video. I appreciate the groove, the accuracy, the consistency of tone and volume. Those are things often missing in YouTube covers. If your snare tone changes every bar and your volume goes up for the drum fills, then you can do better.

 

[2 hit wonder]

The snare sounds good to me. Maybe it isn't an 'inspiring' video. I appreciate the groove, the accuracy, the consistency of tone and volume. Those are things often missing in YouTube covers. If your snare tone changes every bar and your volume goes up for the drum fills, then you can do better.

Yes.

It's a critique with other factors perhaps having an impact on the outcome of sound.

I got a recent job because the previous drummer was playing it safe. Several people I've worked with at least once want much more snap out of the snare. More energy, more pop.

But that video is just 1 sample and I can't make an opinion fully on his offerings.

 

[Chris Whitten]

My snare changes every day, both the tuning and the drum itself. If someone wants more snap I can get there in about one minute.
By and large YouTubers tend to go for the cranked ringy snare. Five or so years ago people on drum forums used to argue with me if I suggested anyone put a moon gel on their snare. It was supposedly a failure to tune the drum properly.

 

[2 hit wonder]

That was 2 observations I made. One is snare sound, which is admittedly subjective and tunable. But also the safety of the playing. It's notably cautious.

Nobody asked, but I'd make a 2nd video of the same song adding some more energy.

 

[Chris Whitten]

But also the safety of the playing. It's notably cautious.

I believe he's playing it note for note as the original record (by Steve Ferrone), fills and all.
I am cautious (up to a point) when I'm working on a high profile project. I think people want to nail the perfect take early on, then offer the producer (or artist) a more wild take to see if they prefer it, or want to edit some wilder fills into the cautious take.
I dunno, one of my favourite drummers is Andy Newmark, who just plays solid time with impeccable feel.

 

[Chris Whitten]

Maybe some people need to change the way they see YouTubers, maybe they need to go in with the mindset of "What can I learn from this person?"

There's just a mountain of content.
guess everyone has different views on this, but I'm the same in other creative areas. If there are two videos on eq'ing drums I will watch the video by the producer I know and admire, and probably not the video by the guy I've never heard of. Likewise photography. The YouTubers who shoot cliche images but with vintage film cameras get thousands of followers while the guys who are innovative, but using modern industry standard gear don't get many views.