Your favorite limbs Independence exercices

[Auspicious]

Do you have any favorite limbs independence exercises?

You know, the kind of sheets music that will consume a good amount brain processing power, it will warm up ankles and make you feel like garbage every time you practice them? After a year, you still feel you are doing it slowly and etc.

I have a couple of exercises myself like the comping from the book Syncopation #2 - In the jazz idiom for the Drumset. I also have an exercise called 3 note independence in the Jazz Drumming System from Mike Michalkow, it's based on triplet and very good exercises in my opinion.

Do you have any favorite limbs independence exercises you like to practice?

 

[C.M. Jones]

There's a classic text titled Four-Way Independence for Rock Drumming that I still enjoy using on occasion. Many years ago, once my lessons shifted from a practice pad/snare drum to a full kit, it was the first book my instructor and I worked through. It's a timeless resource for drummers of all genres.

 

[nolibos]

Ari Hoenig's book has some great coordination exercises. The ones with right hand and foot ostinato with left foot reading melodic line are particularly hard for my brain.

 

[Auspicious]

There's a classic text titled Four-Way Independence for Rock Drumming that I still enjoy using on occasion. Many years ago, once my lessons shifted from a practice pad/snare drum to a full kit, it was the first book my instructor and I worked through. It's a timeless resource for drummers of all genres.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll look into it, it would be very good for me to practice rock drumming.

4-Way Coordination: A Method Book for the Development of Complete Independence on the Drum Set: Dahlgren, Marvin, Fine, Elliot: 8601300481449: Books - Amazon.ca

4-Way Coordination: A Method Book for the Development of Complete Independence on the Drum Set: Dahlgren, Marvin, Fine, Elliot: 8601300481449: Books - Amazon.ca

www.amazon.ca

Ari Hoenig's book has some great coordination exercises. The ones with right hand and foot ostinato with left foot reading melodic line are particularly hard for my brain.

Is this the one ?
Systems, Bk 1: Drumming Technique and Melodic Jazz Independence

I didn't know Ari Hoening, I checked out some videos, this one, 3/4 ostinato. Interesting ideas. I like his ride cymbal very much.

 

[Auspicious]

Ok i listened to Hoenig's playing or the drums this time with this live video in a minuscule venue. Between 3:00 and 4:30 hehehe, worthwhile listening, very good stuff, it's a shame that we can't hear the double bass more then that.

It's incredible how every drummer has is very own style, it's all similar but very different. Match grip make things different too, but equally good.

I hope someone will listen to this video between 3:00 and 4:30.

 

[toddbishop]

Absolutely. There are two major things I do with that-- apart from ordinary jazz and latin materials:

One is based on the "harmonic" coordination section of 4-Way Coordination by Dahlgren & Fine. With their thing you're basically doing one stick control hands and a different one with the feet. The way they wrote it, it's really damn hard to practice it. I came up with a system where you do all the same stuff, and more, but it's more progressive in difficulty, so you don't just want to jump off a bridge four hours into practicing it. And it's more relatable to every day drumming. I don't have a comprehensive explanation of the system written out, but you can look at the things I've posted about it, and figure out an approach. In fact the thing I ended up with is very much like the beginning of Accents & Rebounds, with the accents played on a cymbal + bass drum-- if you did that you'd get a good sense of what it is.

The other is I've written a bunch of stuff for developing independence within an Afro-Cuban 6/8 feel. It's sort of a universal groove that influences how you play everything else in music, I've found. And it's a very demanding framework for developing independence.

 

[Ghostin one]

Yes, pages o' coordination, recently this one where the hi hat falls on 2 and 5 in 6/8, or the middle note of a triplet (sort of):

Page o' coordination: Afro 6 - âAfricanâ

Drumming blog focused on jazz, funk, fusion, and Latin. Hundreds of pages of practice materials and transcriptions free to download.

www.cruiseshipdrummer.com

It's tricky (to me) after working on this one, where the hi hat is on the first note of a triplet:

Page o' coordination: Afro 6/4 - triplets

Drumming blog focused on jazz, funk, fusion, and Latin. Hundreds of pages of practice materials and transcriptions free to download.

www.cruiseshipdrummer.com

 

[toddbishop]

Yes, pages o' coordination, recently this one where the hi hat falls on 2 and 5 in 6/8, or the middle note of a triplet (sort of):

Page o' coordination: Afro 6 - âAfricanâ

Drumming blog focused on jazz, funk, fusion, and Latin. Hundreds of pages of practice materials and transcriptions free to download.

www.cruiseshipdrummer.com

It's tricky (to me) after working on this one, where the hi hat is on the first note of a triplet:

Page o' coordination: Afro 6/4 - triplets

Drumming blog focused on jazz, funk, fusion, and Latin. Hundreds of pages of practice materials and transcriptions free to download.

www.cruiseshipdrummer.com

Cool, you're working on those! That's kind of an African thing, putting the pulse in the middle of the triplet like that. There's another one from a few years ago that has both feet doing that in unison, which is a good place to start with that. This whole area is really rewarding to me-- after awhile the time becomes a sort of compound pulse, where you're perceiving the 3, the 2, and their inversions at the same time. It's a very deep thing to have in your playing.

 

[Auspicious]

Absolutely. There are two major things I do with that-- apart from ordinary jazz and latin materials:

One is based on the "harmonic" coordination section of 4-Way Coordination by Dahlgren & Fine. With their thing you're basically doing one stick control hands and a different one with the feet. The way they wrote it, it's really damn hard to practice it. I came up with a system where you do all the same stuff, and more, but it's more progressive in difficulty, so you don't just want to jump off a bridge four hours into practicing it. And it's more relatable to every day drumming. I don't have a comprehensive explanation of the system written out, but you can look at the things I've posted about it, and figure out an approach. In fact the thing I ended up with is very much like the beginning of Accents & Rebounds, with the accents played on a cymbal + bass drum-- if you did that you'd get a good sense of what it is.

The other is I've written a bunch of stuff for developing independence within an Afro-Cuban 6/8 feel. It's sort of a universal groove that influences how you play everything else in music, I've found. And it's a very demanding framework for developing independence.

Thanks for the website, I like the idea of progressive difficulty. I jumped off the bridge a couple of years with Syncopation for the modern drummer... I could not grasp the book at all.. even if it's apparently a very good book.

You have a very interesting website Todd, I am listening to your album Travelogue right now and so far I find it very good. Great musicians and highly musical drumming. Very well recorded too, I (we) can really appreciate the sounds of your cymbals.

I put the link of the album.

Travelogue, by Todd Bishop

8 track album

toddbishop.bandcamp.com

All this was about independence sheets until I saw you cymbal pages, I instantly liked the Hassan 2148 grams.

Tomorrow i'll print some pages of these independence exercise to give them a shot, and to practice other time signature then 4/4 and 3/4 too.

 

[toddbishop]

Thanks for the kind words Auspicious, and for sharing my stuff. I co-wrote all that material with the pianist, a really great player and composer from Brazil. That track Ventimiglia relates directly to the independence stuff GO posted above-- that's the exact type of groove I'm playing there.

I'm basically a fanatic about those cymbals-- I think they're the closest thing to a Turkish K you can get today. Hassan is a really nice axe.

Good luck working through that stuff-- let me know if you have any questions. The first page of it is always the hardest, remember.

 

[dmacc_2]

My favorite independence exercises are mostly a culmination of things I have been taught from or explored on my own using various books that focus on the topic. Is this overkill? Probably, but I enjoy this type of practice almost more than any other kind.

- Syncopation (Ted Reed) along with the companion, The Drummer's Complete Vocabulary As Taught by Alan Dawson (John Ramsay)
- Systems, Bk 1: Drumming Technique and Melodic Jazz Independence (Ari Hoenig)
- New Breed 1
- New Breed 2

I also do some exercises that I have created myself and reach back to from time to time.

Sometimes I reach for 4-Way Coordination (Marvin Dahlgren and Elliot Fine) but not probably as much as I should.

There have been other books that obviously required coordination to execute, but those don't seem to hold my interest for any length of time.

 

[Swissward Flamtacles]

You mean this? Do you count loudly? Try to aim for no flams on beats 1 and 3. Or reverse it and play the left on 2 and 4 while listening to slow Blues Rock.

     1ea2ea3ea4ea
R    XxxXxxXxxXxx
L    x     x

 

[ineedaclutch]

It sounds like @Noisy is going for a 3 against 2, or 3:2, polyrythym. I specifically remember learning this in grade school for a chime part.

 

[ineedaclutch]

Thanks for the reply and input.
I think I am not “supposed” to count to six always to make it work. I thought independent hands could think separately. How did you work it out?

Edit: thanks for mentioning a 3:2 polyrhythm. A google search gave many links. So this is what I’m trying at the moment. But, I am confused if I should be always counting to six or does magic independence show up someday and make things independent

You're welcome. It would be better to be able to count the 6 or 4 while playing, but it's not necessary. You should be able to feel it out eventually. I don't remember what the song was, but Carol of the Bells is a good, well known example.
I find this writing easier to understand than trips. I am having a tough time with the spaces, but try 1,+,a,2 with your right, and also left on 1.
1e+a2
R_RLR
L
If you can play 1 e + a 2, you have the pattern down in this case.

 

[Auspicious]

Thanks for the kind words Auspicious, and for sharing my stuff. I co-wrote all that material with the pianist, a really great player and composer from Brazil. That track Ventimiglia relates directly to the independence stuff GO posted above-- that's the exact type of groove I'm playing there.

I'm basically a fanatic about those cymbals-- I think they're the closest thing to a Turkish K you can get today. Hassan is a really nice axe.

Good luck working through that stuff-- let me know if you have any questions. The first page of it is always the hardest, remember.

I am listening to Ventimiglia again to capture that rhythm. I'll let you know if I have questions, I might have some later. I like what your planist plays too, in Dom's riff, with the Fender Rhodes, I like the sound of these keyboards very much.

 

[Auspicious]

My favorite independence exercises are mostly a culmination of things I have been taught from or explored on my own using various books that focus on the topic. Is this overkill? Probably, but I enjoy this type of practice almost more than any other kind.

- Syncopation (Ted Reed) along with the companion, The Drummer's Complete Vocabulary As Taught by Alan Dawson (John Ramsay)
- Systems, Bk 1: Drumming Technique and Melodic Jazz Independence (Ari Hoenig)
- New Breed 1
- New Breed 2

I also do some exercises that I have created myself and reach back to from time to time.

Sometimes I reach for 4-Way Coordination (Marvin Dahlgren and Elliot Fine) but not probably as much as I should.

There have been other books that obviously required coordination to execute, but those don't seem to hold my interest for any length of time.

I don't think it's overkill.. I was tired all day today and just by thinking about the wide array of things to practice, to improve. I had to refocus my mind on beautiful things. When I am tired everything looks like a mountain.. Surprisignly I had a fun practice where I noticed improvements.

It's out of topic but I had to say it.

I was thinking about listening to music and writing down the things I like the most in order to practice THAT especially. Or perhaps sign it and record it for transcription. I often have ideas but no way to save them. What I like to listen is often more in listening to music then reading exercises, like you say an exploration.

Ari Hoenig's book seems popular.

 

[MrInsanePolack]

I think I am not “supposed” to count to six always to make it work. I thought independent hands could think separately. How did you work it out?

X__X__ <--R
X_X_X_ <--L

You can play it with the R/L switched obviously if you want to.

 

[toddbishop]

I don't think it's overkill.. I was tired all day today and just by thinking about the wide array of things to practice, to improve. I had to refocus my mind on beautiful things. When I am tired everything looks like a mountain.. Surprisignly I had a fun practice where I noticed improvements.

With this type of thing what you expect to get from it is not always what you actually get. Often it's just improved focus, or you learn some things about rhythm, or your accuracy improves, or your coordination on your ordinary stuff, or you make some subterranean connections that allow some unexpected things to happen later on. You're building drumming intelligence.

And I like to keep the stuff based in musical reality-- like Latin rhythms and African rhythms-- and not just hot shit from whatever latest drum book. You're building a real connection to something very old that way.

 

[MrInsanePolack]

Thanks. I am currently counting to six to make it work but am not functionally independent. Is repetition the only way? Do you have suggestions to make it more natural?

I definitely find repetition beneficial. I like to sort something out on the pad, then take it to the kit and apply it in a more musical sense once I have the sticking figured and ideas on how to use it.

 

[Auspicious]

With this type of thing what you expect to get from it is not always what you actually get. Often it's just improved focus, or you learn some things about rhythm, or your accuracy improves, or your coordination on your ordinary stuff, or you make some subterranean connections that allow some unexpected things to happen later on. You're building drumming intelligence.

And I like to keep the stuff based in musical reality-- like Latin rhythms and African rhythms-- and not just hot shit from whatever latest drum book. You're building a real connection to something very old that way.

I noticed that, these subterranean connections created by practicing various things. I find it weird but since it's working.. I try to rotate various types of exercises then I practice a play along the music to test the new knowledge. I see improvements... I still have a wide chariot of drumming intelligence and vocabulary to develop.

But it's highly interesting.

I practiced a sheet called "broken ride patern" today for the first time, unexpectedly, I learned new things regarding the displacement of the position of the hi-hat away from the usual 2 and 4, with that exercise.

***
You suggested this to me previously: independence within an Afro-Cuban 6/8 feel

I looked at the webpage but there are many sheets, this one must be this the right one?

http://www.pdxdrummer.com/downloads/lessons_downloads/drumset/pdxdrummer.com_POC_afro-6_african.pdf