The Ruff

Let's show a little more restraint, diplomacy, and respect to our fellow members.

If you're having a problem with a discussion - and it does happen - then it's time to exit the thread and stop escalating the mood.
 
MattRitter said:
Just out of curiosity, what is the question that still lacks an answer, or is still open for debate? I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I literally don't know.

The thread started because somebody asked what a "ruff" is. Between the original NARD list of 13 rudiments, and the various books that have been cited by Todd and others, it seems that the "what is a ruff" question was answered many posts ago.

Unless I somehow inferred the wrong conclusion from this thread so far, it seems that "ruff" is another word for "drag." It can be played "open" or "closed."

It also seems that a tiny minority of teachers and books over the years have used the term "3 stroke ruff" to refer to 3 single strokes, with an accent on the 3rd one...sorta like a truncated version of the 4 stroke ruff.

Is this a pretty good summary of the main takeaways?
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I'm still a bit hung up on it and cannot accept that a Ruff and a Drag are the same thing.The whole 3 Stroke Ruff thing has certainly clarified something for me. (Love the idea of 3 singles played so fast they make 1 sound)

I tried reconnecting with a pro orchestral percussionist who I lost touch with 5 years ago. But have not heard back yet

I watched the Dan Wooton Vic firth material and he talks about how a drummers approach to the ruff is an element of their sound which I'm begining to see and understand why rudimental teaching dogma can can limit a kit players development

Thinking back, I have been playing crushed Ruffs for time before I had been introduced to the Ruff or the Double Stroke Roll and guess that's part of my sound

I'm happy to I have unearthed a hot potato so please: fight amongst yourselves whilst I keep digging deeper
 
KenDoken said:
I'm still a bit hung up on it and cannot accept that a Ruff and a Drag are the same thing.The whole 3 Stroke Ruff thing has certainly clarified something for me. (Love the idea of 3 singles played so fast they make 1 sound)

I tried reconnecting with a pro orchestral percussionist who I lost touch with 5 years ago. But have not heard back yet

I watched the Dan Wooton Vic firth material and he talks about how a drummers approach to the ruff is an element of their sound which I'm begining to see and understand why rudimental teaching dogma can can limit a kit players development

Thinking back, I have been playing crushed Ruffs for time before I had been introduced to the Ruff or the Double Stroke Roll and guess that's part of my sound

I'm happy to I have unearthed a hot potato so please: fight amongst yourselves whilst I keep digging deeper
Click to expand...
Speaking of John Wooton, for those who want even more discussion of this topic, here's what he says about the whole ruff/drag thing in his 2010 book, Dr. Throwdown's Rudimental Remedies:
 

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eddypierce said:
Speaking of John Wooton, for those who want even more discussion of this topic, here's what he says about the whole ruff/drag thing in his 2010 book, Dr. Throwdown's Rudimental Remedies:
Click to expand...

Interesting that he was from Eugene originally. He'd be between my brother's and my generations, I'll ask him if he knew him.

Here's his VF video on this:


I'd like to see that facebook conversation-- Wooten and a couple of the people there are Phantom Regiment guys. That's a different school of corps drumming from what I was raised in. I wouldn't want to play like every single guy he mentions there:

 
toddbishop said:
Interesting that he was from Eugene originally. He'd be between my brother's and my generations, I'll ask him if he knew him.

Here's his VF video on this:


I'd like to see that facebook conversation-- Wooten and a couple of the people there are Phantom Regiment guys. That's a different school of corps drumming from what I was raised in. I wouldn't want to play like every single guy he mentions there:

Click to expand...
Really, from Eugene? He seems to have a southern accent, so I assumed he grew up in the south, but maybe it's just that he's been there a long time.

I believe Wooton worked a bit with Mazur when he was in the Phantom Regiment (and Mazur was an instructor) in the 1980's, but I get the sense that they diverge a fair amount when it comes to playing technique. When I met Jim Chapin at PASIC in 1995, he singled out Wooton as a corps guy who played using the Moeller method (which, as you know, Mazur seems to frown upon), and in Wooton's books he talks about using the Moeller upstroke when playing rudiments (in the Drummer's Rudimental Reference Book, he outlines a stroke system that was shown to him by Dom Famularo, a Chapin student).
 
KenDoken said:
I'm still a bit hung up on it and cannot accept that a Ruff and a Drag are the same thing.
Click to expand...


a Ruff is when it's followed by one note, all alone
(it being the two little notes) all alone as a solitary figure if you will..
it's a Drag when it's followed or preceded or among more than one; many notes. Look at the names here

No.8 Ruff
harvey 001.JPG
becomes when surrounded a

no.9 Single Drag
harvey 002.JPG

Drag implies you're taking something (other notes) "along with it"
Like "I had to drag Jimmy out of his bed this morning"

No.10 Double Drag
harvey 003.JPG

a Ruff is just a one single punch to the head
 
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I meant drum head and did you raise your hand?

😁
 
jda said:
a Ruff is when it's followed by one note, all alone
(it being the two little notes) all alone as a solitary figure if you will..
it's a Drag when it's followed or preceded or among more than one; many notes.

No.8 Ruff
View attachment 143908
becomes when surrounded a

no.9 Single Drag
View attachment 143909

Drag implies you're taking something (other notes) "along with it"
Like "I had to drag Jimmy out of his bed this morning"

No.10 Double Drag
View attachment 143910

a Ruff is just a one single punch to the head
Click to expand...

Hey, JDA

Unfortunately, the PAS went and changed around the names...which I believe is part of what has caused this entire debate/controversy/misunderstanding/etc/etc/etc.

What you've laid out pretty much reflects the NARD listing. But then if you look at the more current PAS listing, you will see that the NARD "ruff" is literally identical to the PAS "drag." And then to further complicate matters, the NARD "drag" is the PAS "single drag tap."

These PAS name changes are really unfortunate in my opinion. I can't imagine why they were done, but this thread is evidence of the damage that was caused.

In any case, I personally couldn't say that somebody was wrong for using the term "ruff " or the term "drag" for 2 grace notes followed by a single stroke. When you've got the NARD list in front of you and the PAS list in front of you, it's pretty clear that both of these terms are valid and have a history of referring to the same thing.
 
well the history is as you said
the surrounding or insertion of a ruff in with extra notes made it a drag (no pun..
ruff a one note (plus) and a drag drags additional major notes in.
so historically because of it's placement circumstance were not called the same..

harvey 006.JPG
no.22 Drag Paradiddle no. 1
(not "ruff" paradiddle
altho it's a bioch :rolleyes:
 
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i'd vote no because the <two grace notes> in a ruff drag-half ruff <technically> take up < no space>
i.e. they're not <to be> metrically defined <exist > whatsoever>
 
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Alain Rieder said:
OK now guys, if you compare the rrL & llR sticking to the five-stroke roll, it would be more logical to call it the three-stroke roll.

So now let's vote for this ;)
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I'm pretty sure you're yanking our collective chains! Lol

I'm gonna indulge in a "Get off my lawn!" moment and say, I miss the days when a ruff was the thing they call a drag now, and a drag (single, double, etc) was a rudiment that included a ruff. There was also never any question about note value - the two ghost notes were an embellishment and had no assigned value. Easy peasy.

In truth, I don't really *miss* those days; that's just how I learned it. 😉
 
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