toddbishop
Platinum Member
Guys that make you ask highly experienced AT WHAT. Wow. Well done handling that.
keep us posted on how well that works.Haha. I plead not guilty - it was absolutely apparent to me that the only way to record drums was for me to play along to a guide track that had my drums on it.
I tried repeatedly to explain this and no-one took me seriously.
It was me who salvaged the session with the live take too. To be fair, the band leader/guitarist acknowledged that after reviewing the recordings.
But how could it not be obvious from the outset that the drums keep the time, not the guitar?!!
I'm in my first band with some highly experienced gigging musicians - last week we went to a local recording studio to capture a couple of our original songs.
I had suggested the band record Scratch Tracks on my phone of us playing the songs before we went so I could have them in my headphones to play to while recording the drum track...
They laughed at me. "It'll just be a live take of us playing together, stop worrying"
We get set up in the studio and - it is NOT a 'live take of the band'.
The recording guy gets the guitarist/singer to record a Scratch Track, alone, no click, for me to play over.
I protest: "but I'M the time keeper!"
"Have a go", they all say.
I am then instructed to lay down a drum track to this, out of time, recording.
Multiple, miserable, takes later, of banging my head against a wall trying, and failing, to smooth out the time - I ask, exasperated, to record some live takes of me drumming with the band before we go.
It felt like breaking out of chains!
Those live takes were the only usable material we recorded all night.
I'm a newcomer to music - these guys have been playing all their lives...
What the actual ....?
I'm in my first band with some highly experienced gigging musicians - last week we went to a local recording studio to capture a couple of our original songs.
I had suggested the band record Scratch Tracks on my phone of us playing the songs before we went so I could have them in my headphones to play to while recording the drum track...
They laughed at me. "It'll just be a live take of us playing together, stop worrying"
We get set up in the studio and - it is NOT a 'live take of the band'.
The recording guy gets the guitarist/singer to record a Scratch Track, alone, no click, for me to play over.
I protest: "but I'M the time keeper!"
"Have a go", they all say.
I am then instructed to lay down a drum track to this, out of time, recording.
Multiple, miserable, takes later, of banging my head against a wall trying, and failing, to smooth out the time - I ask, exasperated, to record some live takes of me drumming with the band before we go.
It felt like breaking out of chains!
Those live takes were the only usable material we recorded all night.
I'm a newcomer to music - these guys have been playing all their lives...
What the actual ....?
I don't get how you can't be organised when you're recording and it really doesn't take a lot.They key element in what you said above is that you guys had a plan and executed it. I think that is half the battle for a lot of folks.
I'm not surprised at all with the engineer. I had a couple of friends who got stung doing a recording for a choir last year and the engineer insisted the whole band including the drums (yep he insited on vdrums too!) were DI'd and he mixed it on the fly into a stereo mix with no click. He recorded the choir on top of an unchangeable mix and it sounded as bad as you'd think. He charged a kings ransom for this abortion and nobody in the band was paid for their time. My friends quit when it got released and it's on spotify too to make it worse.That engineer sounds like a knucklehead, avoid him if you can, get some experienced people in. I'm just going to bet the dude probably can't mix a salad, much less your tracks.
The first mistake those "playing all their life" guys (and the recording engineer) did was NOT use a metronome for the guitar tracks. How is any drummer supposed to follow a guitarist that is all over the place?I'm in my first band with some highly experienced gigging musicians - last week we went to a local recording studio to capture a couple of our original songs.
I had suggested the band record Scratch Tracks on my phone of us playing the songs before we went so I could have them in my headphones to play to while recording the drum track...
They laughed at me. "It'll just be a live take of us playing together, stop worrying"
We get set up in the studio and - it is NOT a 'live take of the band'.
The recording guy gets the guitarist/singer to record a Scratch Track, alone, no click, for me to play over.
I protest: "but I'M the time keeper!"
"Have a go", they all say.
I am then instructed to lay down a drum track to this, out of time, recording.
Multiple, miserable, takes later, of banging my head against a wall trying, and failing, to smooth out the time - I ask, exasperated, to record some live takes of me drumming with the band before we go.
It felt like breaking out of chains!
Those live takes were the only usable material we recorded all night.
I'm a newcomer to music - these guys have been playing all their lives...
What the actual ....?
I had to play to the largest audience of my life without monitors...Thankyou, Ron.
I'm very much a 'less is more' type of groove drummer - so I value my timing even more. Pride myself on it, even. Hence my frustration!
Glad you mentioned the click - because it absolutely would not have worked on one of these songs anyway - it slows down in the choruses. I also hate the idea.
What I was desperate to do was play over a Scratch Track with my own drums already on the song - it would have been SO simple to achieve!
When I suggested it - the sound man looked puzzled said "no, it might muddy the drum sound"
How could it muddy the sound when it's only in my headphones???
I think he must have misunderstood my meaning.
That is absolute true. HE should have known better. but nowadays anyone with a mixing console and a DAW call themselves "producer" or "Audio Engineer" when they haven't produced a single thing nor have they gone to school to actually learn music production.You guys need a better recording guy "Recording Engineer". You had a bad experience because you had a bad recording guy.
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This ^^^ I have never wanted to be the guy who knew the least of ...Anything. In order to be "educated" I do a lot of research (which is much easier now with the internet), back in the day you had magazines and books and you had to go find them. I understand having a hard time learning something that you are NOT interested in, but learning the recording process??? (Shakes the bell and chants: "Shame, Shame, Shame").Your band mates failed by not communicating what they wanted/expected from the engineer.
The engineer failed by not communicating with your band to as to what you guys expected from him.
Amateur hour. Both parties huge fail.
And YOU failed. Yup. It is your life and time is ticking. What have you done to educate yourself on how the recording process works? Are you expecting to have your band mates and some random engineer educate you? You were playing original tunes and didn't expect you'd be doing some recording at some point? You are on the internet. The resources are huge and mostly free. There are drummers on this board who have drummed on records that sold millions. Did you make a thread on what to expect, practice, ask or do before you went in the studio?
I've had far too many situations like this so I can relate. I now just focus on what I have to hear and consider the rest a luxury. For example, in my keys driven band as long as I can hear the keys and the vocals I can play our set. If I can hear other things, great. If not... I can still play. I grew so tired so arguing with sound guys about monitor mix for an hour straight that I learned to just fight for what I need and not bother with the rest.I had to play to the largest audience of my life without monitors...
The only reference I got from my drums was the sound bouncing back from a building across the street about a second after I hit a drum. I could not hear the guitars or let's say it was a complete wall of noise that was unintelligible to me, so I had to literally play all our songs alone and counting the bars. No click track or anything else. This made me learn the importance of monitors. Then years later, I went to a studio to record our bands originals for a demo. I have good timing, always have, but the engineer wanted me to record with a click which is understandable because nobody is perfect.
It took me 3 takes to get used to the click, basically I played the song almost all the way through but a little change got me out of sync and they didn't want to punch in the rest, they wanted a full perfect take... That was the only song that was that difficult, all others were busier on the drums but somehow much easier to track in on or two takes tops. It felt really weird to be the first and only one tracking at that point but that also reinforced my understanding that you should know the songs in your sleep BEFORE going to the studio so you can play your parts alone, forward and backwards.
One final thing, if you get told by the recording engineer to change something, don't get mad, just listen, very seldom would they make a change that didn't make sense. Finally learn how they tune, where they position mics, how they EQ, and anything else you can so that when you get your own gear to record at home, you have a good starting point. All of this ONLY applies if you are working with a REAL recording engineer in a real studio and not just some dude with a mixer and a DAW that probably knows less than you do.
Why learn to do something virtually no one ever does? The music is there to guide you through the arrangement, therefore you can concentrate on the feel and execute any fills to the best of your ability.That said, you should learn (and then be able to perform) the song by yourself using a click track. (
I've had far too many situations like this so I can relate. I now just focus on what I have to hear and consider the rest a luxury. For example, in my keys driven band as long as I can hear the keys and the vocals I can play our set. If I can hear other things, great. If not... I can still play. I grew so tired so arguing with sound guys about monitor mix for an hour straight that I learned to just fight for what I need and not bother with the rest.
Why learn to do something virtually no one ever does? The music is there to guide you through the arrangement, therefore you can concentrate on the feel and execute any fills to the best of your ability.
I record on my own all the time. Someone sends me their track and I play to it. They've played their track to a click (and told me the bpm), or at a push I can generate a tempo map and make a new click. But you won't get a killer recording when the whole thing is based on a drummer in a room on their own, with no music to play to.
If I had a dollar for every guitarist or keyboard player who can’t keep good time…oh wait…I do . But somehow it all comes together, unless they really
But - the simplest and most natural way to do the job would have been for me to play over a track of me and my band, performing the song.The first mistake those "playing all their life" guys (and the recording engineer) did was NOT use a metronome for the guitar tracks. How is any drummer supposed to follow a guitarist that is all over the place?
I say don't let them put it on you. as a matter of fact even show them this if they argue.
That said, you should learn (and then be able to perform) the song by yourself using a click track. (Not as easy to do when the music has several tempo changes but still not too hard if you know how many measures before a change).
If you can't play alone to a metronome then it was not only the guitarist it was also you.
Who even does that? Talk about making life harder than it needs to be! That will sound dreadful.That said, you should learn (and then be able to perform) the song by yourself using a click track. (Not as easy to do when the music has several tempo changes but still not too hard if you know how many measures before a change).
If you can't play alone to a metronome then it was not only the guitarist it was also you.