Lars was right...

Growing up, my dad had a reel to reel and later on got a whole ADAT system with a mixing board and whatnot. I was lucky to have some access to multitracking recording growing up for sure, it taught me alot and at that time it wasn't a common thing aside for some 4 track recorders.

Now, everyone has a home recording studio of some kind (big or small), no wonder we have such content saturation. You can see it the in the budget kits got better...globalization (for better or worse), made these thing far more accessible and affordable. You can make music without learning an instrument either. On top of this, the competing media of modern tech...even more media saturation, more so than any time in human history. Pretty tough to cut through the noise.

Natural selection would say for music, the media needs to evolve to something far more exclusive to cut this noise. Maybe that means have VR body suit experiences at music shows or changing what an album is in the classic sense (or always have it combined with other media like movies or animimation with a new technological front). Just some wild ideas....but part of the art is creative solutions and it hasn't found its self other than repeating legacy formats of yesteryear that are just lost. Nature says either evolve or die.


I'm having a flashback of CD burners in 1997...remember when getting a 4x was like Ferrari? And just like dual tape decks, everyone was primed to this concept since more or less many people traded with their friends without much thought....until is got ridiculously easy like the Napster thing, seemed like a line got a crossed. And not to be an old fart, but there is a notable generation difference that expects 'free' media without a second thought that weren't even alive at this time...the attitude now is more like an expected 'why isn't it all free' is what I gather.
My family are absolutely steeped in sound recording and technology. My Grandad was involved in the design of the BBC BC1 Monitor speakers and we have a prototype pair sitting at my parent's house. He worked for the BBC from 1958-1988 and followed everything until he died a couple of years ago at 92. He was working on digital audio in the late 70s when it was a brand new concept. He had his hands in everything...

I think he would have been the first to say that technology and artistry move in a locked step. I would entirely agree with that. As the technology evolves, so must the industry and so must artists. I don't so much believe in 'cutting through the noise' as much as wildly embracing the wider democratisation of the industry. A lot of rubbish is made but so is a lot of interesting music that would never have left the bedroom 30 years ago and I think we're all the richer for it. It's simply a case of learning to curate your own taste.

This does mean that there's a smaller chunk of the pie for many artists - but those artists may never have had any part of the pie at all in the past because their music would never have been released to a wide audience and if it was, it would have been through underground casette scenes (which still exist, incidentally).

The major labels got complacent and thought that their hegemony over distribution with physical media would continue, despite the presence of the Internet. They were wrong and now the people making the most money out of music are technology companies like Spotify (and I don't use Spotify for a number of reasons - including ethical) and Apple (who I do buy music from regularly and their streaming service does tend to pay more than Spotify). Digital music distribution completely sideswiped the major labels and it took Sean Parker and Napster to make them realise that digital music distribution was the future and that there was a market for it.

Streaming comes in much later. Do I stream music? Sometimes. I have an iPod Classic that I still use regularly and I prefer buying the file and downloading it to my device where possible but there are also times when I really want to listen to a particular artist and don't happen to have that album to hand - or I haven't bought it yet. I do usually buy anything I stream more than a handful of times but I know that attitude isn't prevalant and I have a level of disposable income. When I was a teenager I did pirate music on occasion but anything I liked I have since purchased in one format or another. I own casette tapes, reel-to-reel tapes (no way of playing them), CDs, a modest amount of vinyl and a range of devices, speakers and headphones to listen to them.

I care that artists get paid fairly for their work and I care that artists are able to put their work out there on services like Bandcamp without needing a distributor. It may not get them many sales or a huge audience but I've discovered dozens of interesting, independent artists online and spent many hours listening to digital dowloaded albums I've bought from these artists. Sometimes I also buy physical media from them when it's available. There's also a Bandcamp page for my own work and I have offered physical media from there too.

It's a much wider industry now than it has ever been and I'm all the more grateful for it. The joy of discovering an underground artist on Bandcamp and exploring their catalogue by streaming some of their tracks, then purchasing their music never goes away and it has hugely enriched my life, opening up possibilities and genres that I would never have thought to listen to.

I'm not upset about the decline of major labels. They're still out there, still dominating the charts and that's fine. Taylor Swift managed to get all ten top-ten slots on the Billboard Hot 100 the other day, so you can't exactly claim that major labels are dead. It's just that had they managed to get an early start - like Apple did - they'd be making a Hell of a lot more money now than they do.
 
How is this any different than what has been going on since the dawn of consumer driven music?
You've ways had to "get discovered" in order to make a living.
Where to start....
Record labels and radio stations acted as curators. Often a label had a sound that you trusted as a consumer - Motown, Solar, Warp, ECM.
Before streaming you weren't competing for ears with The Beatles, Pink Floyd, The Rolling Stones, effectively every classic record ever released. Apart from 'oldies' stations, most popular radio played new, or relatively new releases. If you liked Van Halen you typically sat through a couple of hours of other artist's music until your radio station played the new Van Halen release. These days most streaming users aren't exposed to music they don't know.
Artists were nurtured and funded by the system. It costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to be 'discovered'. That's what the label advance paid for. Now we are supposed to pay for it ourselves. That's why young bands of under 25's are either broke or unheard.
 
I'm not upset about the decline of major labels. They're still out there, still dominating the charts and that's fine. Taylor Swift managed to get all ten top-ten slots on the Billboard Hot 100 the other day, so you can't exactly claim that major labels are dead. It's just that had they managed to get an early start - like Apple did - they'd be making a Hell of a lot more money now than they do.
Sorry, but you really don't understand the topic. The gap has widened. The major labels are stronger, making more money than before, more dominant than ever. Independents have become weaker and individual musicians are much poorer. That is the actual facts of it.
You keep wanting to link record labels with musicians. That is wrong. Record labels took a minor hit to their income with piracy, but they had deep pockets. They also owned most of the classic music that had ever been released, which gave them great bargaining power.
So with recorded music being worth $0, they did a deal with Spotify that agreed fees of $0.004 per stream - which is better than $0 right? And also likely to become a much bigger number on catalogues that millions of users stream repeatedly.
The record companies might have been caught with their trousers down with mp3, but individual musicians weren't. What did you expect us to do? We didn't have millions of R&D dollars behind us, we make music not technology.
These threads on musician forums depress me.
 
and now the people making the most money out of music are technology companies like Spotify (and I don't use Spotify for a number of reasons - including ethical) and Apple (who I do buy music from regularly and their streaming service does tend to pay more than Spotify). Digital music distribution completely sideswiped the major labels and it took Sean Parker and Napster to make them realise that digital music distribution was the future and that there was a market for it.
Yawn. Funny you list the people making money out of music and there is no mention of the workers, the people actually CREATING the music.
You repeat this tired old trope about Sean Parker hammering the labels, 1) ignoring the impact on the workers (the creators), 2) contradicting yourself by admitting later the record labels still exist and still dominate the charts.
It's no good smaller independent musicians having access to distribution and the ears of the public if no one ever sees or hears the release.
The tech companies are funded by sponsorships and advertising. Their algorithm is therefore 100% designed to peddle the most popular music that will attract more listeners and keep them listening for longer. So yeah...Taylor Swift, Nicki Minaj, etc...
At least the old system paid SOME respect to greater art, but the streaming algorithm purposely promotes the most commercial songs and hides the left field, innovative music which is of course the least popular.
 
And by the way, largely speaking tech based disruption hammers the workers and rewards founders and their investors. Recent research found that food couriers - self employed people delivering for Just Eat, Deliveroo are working very long hours and earning about £7 per hour. The average hourly wage in the UK is currently £14.99
Streaming is great for consumers, and so are online food apps, but be aware of the workers who are exploited.
 
Yawn. Funny you list the people making money out of music and there is no mention of the workers, the people actually CREATING the music.
You repeat this tired old trope about Sean Parker hammering the labels, 1) ignoring the impact on the workers (the creators), 2) contradicting yourself by admitting later the record labels still exist and still dominate the charts.
It's no good smaller independent musicians having access to distribution and the ears of the public if no one ever sees or hears the release.
The tech companies are funded by sponsorships and advertising. Their algorithm is therefore 100% designed to peddle the most popular music that will attract more listeners and keep them listening for longer. So yeah...Taylor Swift, Nicki Minaj, etc...
At least the old system paid SOME respect to greater art, but the streaming algorithm purposely promotes the most commercial songs and hides the left field, innovative music which is of course the least popular.
You still haven't addressed any of my points, Chris.
 
You still haven't addressed any of my points, Chris.
You didn't address mine - how are emerging artists able to make a living, even though they can access cheap distribution?
Why have the leading pirates joined the board of streaming companies?
Is the market broken or not?
If the 'market decides' that means music is like KFC. Markets follow popular money makers, not artistic integrity.
 
And it's not just me. Shirley Manson on the BBC today.
Quote:
"That is the deal: Creative people need systems by which they can reach the population and the industry exploits that need. They make a lot of money and they are very careless with artists - who are the last people to get paid.
"We were lucky in that we emerged at a time before streaming when you could build a career. These days, alternative artists, who aren't making music to appeal to the mainstream, are getting drowned every single day."

 
You didn't address mine - how are emerging artists able to make a living, even though they can access cheap distribution?
Why have the leading pirates joined the board of streaming companies?
Is the market broken or not?
If the 'market decides' that means music is like KFC. Markets follow popular money makers, not artistic integrity.
At no point was I discussing streaming though. You've taken what I've said about digital sales and twisted it into something completely different. I was not even discussing streaming other than to point out that it took off in about 2009. Digital music sales to download to your hard drive started in earnest in 2003. With the traditional distribution model, albeit with Apple's store front. So until we go down the route of discussing artistic integrity, how do you account for the record labels' collective failure to notice the technological possibilities of online distribution from approximately 1995 to 2003?

So you've ignored my point, decided to make another one (that is valid) but then ask that I answer your point when you won't do the same for mine?

Chris, I don't dislike you mate and I respect your outlook and experience but it's very hard to engage in a debate with you when you just ignore what I'm saying and try to steer the debate towards unrelated points.
 
Sigh....
As I keep saying - digital downloads are a somewhat unpopular blip in the digital music space. It is ALL about streaming now - and the crucial discussion about streaming rates and how that impacts musicians is 100% about piracy. You can't ignore that can you?
You want to know about the gap between mp3's and Spotify/Apple Music.
You say the labels were caught with their trousers down. What about musicians? The labels HAVEN'T lost out. I don't really care about the major labels.
When people were pirating mp3's what did you expect individual musicians to do about it. Build their own streaming service? I certainly didn't have that skill, or the money to do it. You could offer people your own mp3 off your own website, but then one or two people would buy it, then someone would upload it to Pirate Bay and that was the end of your income for your work.
You say Napster took it to the labels. But I was doing dance music at the time. I recorded my own tracks, then had them pressed into 12" singles and stores in London would sell them. That's how dance music mostly worked - independent individuals making the records and selling them themselves. After Napster, someone would buy a popular dance 12", upload it and everyone else would get it for free. So the majority of indie musicians, making music with their own time and money were screwed by Parker and Napster too.
According to Forbes Sean Parker has a net worth of $2.8 billion. Daniel Ek - $1.7 Billion.
The debate is not about whether streaming is bad, it's fine. It's about fair pay and a fair slice of the money for the people doing most of the work and taking most of the financial risk.
 
So until we go down the route of discussing artistic integrity, how do you account for the record labels' collective failure to notice the technological possibilities of online distribution from approximately 1995 to 2003?
I don't. The record companies don't reflect the entire music community - the musicians.
MP3's really didn't start spreading until 1997, Napster came along in 1999.
I'm not dodging your question. It is kind of irrelevant. The only people who could globally adopt mp3 and build an online retail space were the labels or a tech company.
Hard for labels in competition with each other to get together to embrace a new technology that incidentally delivered a poor quality product compared to CD. Sure, they screwed up, but there was nothing artists and individual musicians could do about it. And while artists have continued to suffer lower income, the labels have leveraged a financial win for themselves.
But the MAIN thing is that when mp3 opened up the ability to share music without buying it, self releasing, or small independent artists were impacted the hardest. Tech savvy youngsters were more interested in innovative, niche music than the top 20. So that's what initially got shared the most. Until it became a free for all and many music fans of all tastes started to download free copies of all kinds of music.
I don't want to feel you are diverting the discussion away from the hardship both piracy and Spotify have visited on most musicians, just by repeatedly bringing it back to a failure of foresight over a few years by record labels. We are a community of musicians, not a community of record label execs.
 
These days most streaming users aren't exposed to music they don't know.
Spotify creates a playlist for every user called "release radar" that is based on your listening choices and it contains only new music. Mine has loaded all sorts of small groups and relative unknowns that simply share the genres I regularly listen to. It has introduced me to all sorts of music.
I don't have to search for that playlist either, it's directly on the home page.
 
Spotify creates a playlist for every user called "release radar" that is based on your listening choices and it contains only new music. Mine has loaded all sorts of small groups and relative unknowns that simply share the genres I regularly listen to. It has introduced me to all sorts of music.
I don't have to search for that playlist either, it's directly on the home page.
This is something I was alluding to earlier in the thread and I might be somewhat deviating from your own point in your post, but humour me regardless 😂

Generally only artists with a large following will be automatically chosen to appear on people’s release radar or other playlist.

Of course putting your eggs in one basket and relying on being heard from streaming providers is a loosing game, but the game isn’t as clear cut as it appears for your average musicians.

Of course this has always been the case when it was Radio/MTV….etc

Also this

 
Spotify creates a playlist for every user called "release radar" that is based on your listening choices and it contains only new music.
No (as above) Spotify's own playlists are like gold dust to artists, extremely difficult to get on and often make or break a release.
The whole popular playlist thing is rampant with private playlist owners asking for money to list you.
The fact you don't know the artists on your release radar doesn't mean they are 'under the radar', it means they are trending hard on the platform, that's exactly WHAT the Spotify algorithm does. It identifies with new tracks that lots of people are listening to, and pushes those tracks out to anyone that is interested in that genre.
 
I agree with Juniper, streaming is really a dream factory for losers, and the winners take all.
Nearly 80% of artists on Spotify have fewer than 50 monthly listeners - remembering it takes 1 million streams every month to achieve the annual average wage in the UK.

Quote:
just 1.73 million artists on Spotify currently have more than 50monthly listeners.
As previously noted (again, thanks to the updated Loud & Clear site), there are around8 million artists with music on Spotify in total today.
So it’s a simple mathematical maneuver to conclude that just 21.6% of artists on Spotify today – around 1.7 million of them – have a monthly audience on the platform greater than 50 people.
Or, yup, to put it another way: Nearly 80% (78.4%) of artists on Spotify today – around 6.3 million of them – have a monthly audience on the platform smaller than 50 people.
 
I agree with Juniper, streaming is really a dream factory for losers, and the winners take all.
Nearly 80% of artists on Spotify have fewer than 50 monthly listeners - remembering it takes 1 million streams every month to achieve the annual average wage in the UK.

Quote:
just 1.73 million artists on Spotify currently have more than 50monthly listeners.
As previously noted (again, thanks to the updated Loud & Clear site), there are around8 million artists with music on Spotify in total today.
So it’s a simple mathematical maneuver to conclude that just 21.6% of artists on Spotify today – around 1.7 million of them – have a monthly audience on the platform greater than 50 people.
Or, yup, to put it another way: Nearly 80% (78.4%) of artists on Spotify today – around 6.3 million of them – have a monthly audience on the platform smaller than 50 people.
so at the end of the day... why bother?
 
Well yeah.
Because everyone thinks they are different - THEY are going to blow up.
I always tell people to use Bandcamp. People buy your product and pay you directly on Bandcamp. For about two years, since the beginning of the pandemic, Bandcamp has been doing fee free Friday (once a month), which is putting all the money in the artist's pocket. Good for them.
Spotify is OK as a place to point people towards, if you want to showcase your music and it's a widely used app. It's a terrible place to be discovered and it basically pays the majority of artists diddly squat.
 
Honestly, I put one of my albums on bandcamp for free download back in 2011. I never bother to go to that site for music. I don't even remember my username and password to get it.
 
I got it now. Streaming = evil. Cool.
I don't own an iPod. I don't own a CD player. I don't own a Walkman or cassette player. I have a cheap phone with limited storage.
Do tell me what I'm supposed to be doing to support every little person out there with an album. Just buy media that I can't listen to? Maybe go out and buy a device I don't want or need and buy mp3s on a whim?
I await your solution to my evil streaming habit.
 
Back
Top