Is there a Taiwanese equivalent to Keller?

J

jeffreylamoureux

Member
Hi,

I'm an economist by trade, so I'm naturally interested in the supply chains behind the drums we buy.

Making shells is seemingly difficult and takes a lot of upfront investment, so not all that many companies do it. Keller seemingly makes a huge percent of US-made drum shells, for Gretsch and nearly all of the smaller drum brands. (DW, Craviotto, C&C, Noble & Cooley are the big exceptions I'm aware of.)

But most of the big US and Japanese drum brands also produce lines of less-expensive drums, mostly seemingly in Taiwan (and maybe some in mainland China?).

What I'm unclear on is whether or not these brands - Gretsch, DW, Tama, Yamaha, etc. - are setting up their own factories and making everything themselves there, or are there a few firms that specialize in making shells/assembling drums that do it for them? As in, could it be that Mapex or someone else lesser known is producing shells for the Gretsch Renown and Catalina lines?

Does anyone have any info on this?

Thanks!
 
Names that have come up over the years to me are Peace, Dixon and (mainly in relation to snare drums) Worldmax.
For many years there's also been the confusing story about Mapex and Sonor, namely that Mapex were making some lines of the Force series drums. One of those stories that it's hard to get to the bottom of but I heard conflicting reports ranging from "yes they do" to "no they don't but their production lines are in the same building".
I know when I had one of the reissue Premier Genista kits a local drumshop owner who had links in to Premier asked me what colour it was. When I told him he nodded and smiled saying that it came from the "best factory". All very mysterious.
 
I have a question along those lines, since DW has taken over Gretsch, is the latter still using Keller shells?
 
DW has been making their own shells for more than 20 years.
I remember a MD article back in the late 90's, very early 2000's about Mapex and from what I remember they were a company that made shells for other brands, and decided to make a brand of their own and Mapex.was born. This could be wrong but thats what I remember from 20ish years ago.
Whether they still make shells for other companies, who knows.

Edit: I was mistaken it wasn't Mapex, it was Taye that I was thinking of. See Super Phil's post below.
 
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slightly OT but can anyone definitely tell which metal snare SOUND is used in the opening and close of the pearl video above ...love it! aluminum, brass, bronze or copper?
 
Drum Guy said:
slightly OT but can anyone definitely tell which metal snare SOUND is used in the opening and close of the pearl video above ...love it! aluminum, brass, bronze or copper?
Click to expand...

If I had to guess........ I would say it's the Cast Aluminum shell they use in a few different models... Ultracast ( I think they discontinued this specific name model).. Currently offered in Free Floater and Hybrid Exotic category (which I don't know why they put it under that)

 
Artstar said:
If I had to guess........ I would say it's the Cast Aluminum shell they use in a few different models... Ultracast ( I think they discontinued this specific name model).. Currently offered in Free Floater and Hybrid Exotic category (which I don't know why they put it under that)

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NICE!!! thought it might be aluminum but wasn't sure
 
I read somewhere that Gretsch uses Keller shells for the Renowns and ships them overseas for assembly. Wishful thinking perhaps but I find that reassuring.
 
yammyfan said:
I read somewhere that Gretsch uses Keller shells for the Renowns and ships them overseas for assembly. Wishful thinking perhaps but I find that reassuring.
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I sorta doubt that considering the Renown is currently a "formula" shell according to gretsch but there's big ties with Porkpie, DW, Grestch, Gibralatar etc using the Same OEM's for shells and hardware in Taiwan from what I've heard/dug up. aka dixon.

I believe Yamaha's newer tour custom might be related. Same with the recording custom aluminum, brass, steel snares.

Taiwan quality is underrated IMO. Some of the early 2000s PDP snares ($150-200) had better cut edges than most higher end snares in the $400-500 segment at my local guitar center at the time. I think DW also realized this since they were willing to put their name on the Design series (opposed to PDP).

example of Taiwanese made PDP drum :

reverb.com

DW Pacific PDP 5.5" x 14" Maple Snare w/Wood Hoops Natural Maple | Reverb

Auction is for used PDP PACIFIC SX SERIES MAPLE SNARE DRUM WITH TUBE LUGS AND WOOD HOOPS!!! Size is 5&1/2 x 14". This drum has chrome hardware and tube lugs. The chrome finish is in EXCELLENT CONDITION. No rust or pitting!! The Tube Lugs are in EXCELLENT CONDITION, and the MAPLE SHELL is in M...
reverb.com reverb.com
 
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jeffreylamoureux said:
Making shells is seemingly difficult and takes a lot of upfront investment, so not all that many companies do it.
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I just wanted to say, for the OPs sake, not all shells are created the same. There is ply (the Pearl video), solid steam bent (one solid bent piece of wood), hollow log (exactly as it sounds), stave (think whiskey barrel), and segmented (think bricks in a cylinder shape). Anyone with the proper tools and the ability to do math can make the last 3 in their garage. Drum shells arent really that big of a mystery anymore.
 
jeffreylamoureux said:
What I'm unclear on is whether or not these brands - Gretsch, DW, Tama, Yamaha, etc. - are setting up their own factories and making everything themselves there, or are there a few firms that specialize in making shells/assembling drums that do it for them? As in, could it be that Mapex or someone else lesser known is producing shells for the Gretsch Renown and Catalina lines?

Does anyone have any info on this?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

There are multiple OEM's for these brands.

Tama for example built their own Chinese factory for the current Superstar, SLP and Starclassic drums. Anything below this is outsourced to a different manufacturer. They used to make the Silverstar line here too but that line was discontinued due to lack of sales (unfortunately). The drums below Starclassic/SLP have lower quality control when it comes to bearing edge quality as they're more of a mass produced product.

Edit: Cocktail jam is a silverstar design and should be made in the same factory as above.

The Star line is built in Japan in the old "high end" Tama factory. They still make a Starclassic Maple and Bubinga line here for domestic Japanese buyers. They can be specialty ordered at a price premium via TAMA USA/EU if you really wanted some, but its probably not worth it.

https://www.tama.com/jp/products/category/drum_kits/ The newer Walnut/Birch line Is 100% made in China for Japan.

Gretsch and the Renown should be manufactured by Dixon/Reliance. The Catalina line can vary based on model and is made in either China or Taiwan. Not sure on the exact factories, but a Taiwan made Catalina is likely Dixon as they also make the hardware. Id assume the Chinese factory for Gretsch is shared with PDP's current line up.

DW design should be Manufactured by Dixon/Reliance. Reliance has made the hardware for ALL DW products (inc collectors) since the 90s. Same with Gibraltar as a brand. This also ties into Grestch as they fell under the same umbrella under KMC music awhile back. DW adsorbed both as it made sense for channel distribution.. as you guessed it, same manufacturer behind all 3.

Yamaha has 3-4 OEM's for their drums.

-The Stage Custom is Chinese made (not sure which factory).
-Tour Custom is Taiwanese made (I'd assume Dixon based on maple wood mix similar to Renown but I could be wrong).
-Absolutes/Oak Custom/Recording Custom are made in the main Yamaha Chinese factory in Hangzhou.
-PHX are Japanese made, but I'm sure if this was a Sakae continuation or a specialty case of building a new facility for these overly expensive "niche" drums.

Mapex drums are made in the KHS factory in northern china, but I really doubt any other drums share this except for Sonar's lower ends as an example (another KHS brand). Quality control with Mapex from my experience is worse than the above companies, but man.. they used to make some impressive drums in the 2000s in terms of finishes and value. As a recent 2017 Saturn owner (Bought as a gig kit new), I would skip them as a buyer.


Edit: Most hardware for drums (even made in USA) is made in china or taiwan unless there's still some tooling in the USA.. I would guess ludwig for certain legacy products.
 
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jasz said:
There are multiple OEM's for these brands.

Tama for example built their own Chinese factory for the current Superstar, SLP and Starclassic drums. Anything below this is outsourced to a different manufacturer. They used to make the Silverstar line here too but that line was discontinued due to lack of sales (unfortunately). The drums below Starclassic/SLP have lower quality control when it comes to bearing edge quality as they're more of a mass produced product.

Edit: Cocktail jam is a silverstar design and should be made in the same factory as above.

The Star line is built in Japan in the old "high end" Tama factory. They still make a Starclassic Maple and Bubinga line here for domestic Japanese buyers. They can be specialty ordered at a price premium via TAMA USA/EU if you really wanted some, but its probably not worth it.

https://www.tama.com/jp/products/category/drum_kits/ The newer Walnut/Birch line Is 100% made in China for Japan.

Gretsch and the Renown should be manufactured by Dixon/Reliance. The Catalina line can vary based on model and is made in either China or Taiwan. Not sure on the exact factories, but a Taiwan made Catalina is likely Dixon as they also make the hardware. Id assume the Chinese factory for Gretsch is shared with PDP's current line up.

DW design should be Manufactured by Dixon/Reliance. Reliance has made the hardware for ALL DW products (inc collectors) since the 90s. Same with Gibraltar as a brand. This also ties into Grestch as they fell under the same umbrella under KMC music awhile back. DW adsorbed both as it made sense for channel distribution.. as you guessed it, same manufacturer behind all 3.

Yamaha has 3-4 OEM's for their drums.

-The Stage Custom is Chinese made (not sure which factory).
-Tour Custom is Taiwanese made (I'd assume Dixon based on maple wood mix similar to Renown but I could be wrong).
-Absolutes/Oak Custom/Recording Custom are made in the main Yamaha Chinese factory in Hangzhou.
-PHX are Japanese made, but I'm sure if this was a Sakae continuation or a specialty case of building a new facility for these overly expensive "niche" drums.

Mapex drums are made in the KHS factory in northern china, but I really doubt any other drums share this except for Sonar's lower ends as an example (another KHS brand). Quality control with Mapex from my experience is worse than the above companies, but man.. they used to make some impressive drums in the 2000s in terms of finishes and value. As a recent 2017 Saturn owner (Bought as a gig kit new), I would skip them as a buyer.


Edit: Most hardware for drums (even made in USA) is made in china or taiwan unless there's still some tooling in the USA.. I would guess ludwig for certain legacy products.
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Chrome plating factories in the US are highly regulated by the EPA and local state governments.
It's kind of ironic in that many of these factories were moved from the US to China to skirt these laws.
The new parts of the San Francisco Bay bridge were sourced from a factory in China that was originally located in Beaver County PA..
No US plants could meet the spec because it was cheaper to move the plants and bypass the pollution laws.
 
jeffreylamoureux said:
Amazing info, how did you come to know all of this?

I'm most surprised that Mapex is made on the mainland - I would have assumed Taiwan, and if anything I thought the quality was improving.
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Ive worked in other fields relating to logistics. Drums were a hobby prior to this and I was always interested in knowing where stuff came from and understanding price to quality relations.

I wouldn't say Mapex got "worse", but they're stagnant and more cost focused these days (contributes to lack of options and less lines). Their tooling (hardware) and quality of design is sub par compared to other Asian manufacturers who likely replace molds more often. The shells are okay.. at least on the Saturns.. but they still have inconsistently cut bearing edges regardless of what marketing claims about their "Sonicclear" edge.

In the end of the day, it's only the Saturn and Armory being scrutinized by most drummers these days. Anything below or above these two lines is kinda insignificant given lower end drums are expected to have some fault (more competitive market anyway) and the black panther line is a more niche/rare product in the retailer space.


pgm554 said:
Chrome plating factories in the US are highly regulated by the EPA and local state governments.
It's kind of ironic in that many of these factories were moved from the US to China to skirt these laws.
The new parts of the San Francisco Bay bridge were sourced from a factory in China that was originally located in Beaver County PA..
No US plants could meet the spec because it was cheaper to move the plants and bypass the pollution laws.
Click to expand...

Yeah thats what I figured, but I mentioned Ludwig since you can still buy Made in USA P85 Throw offs. Granted these may have been manufactured years ago and are simply inventory.

Stuff like the Atlas hardware is made in Taiwan and it wouldn't surprise me if Reliance did everything for Ludwig too. (Including Evolution/Centennial drum lines)

~~~~~~~~~~~

Edit:

-Take Grestch.. They buy Keller shells for certain USA lines... are the drums really made in Ridgeland, SC? Depends on manufacturer definition. Shells and hardware are made elsewhere.

-Pearl's Music City Custom shells are manufactured overseas (likely Taiwan), but they market/advertise the kit as made in Nashville, TN.. when 90% of the product comes from ASIA. To me, this is really no different than a TAMA Starclassic kit manufacturered in a dedicated factory in south china.
 
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Woolwich said:
Names that have come up over the years to me are Peace, Dixon and (mainly in relation to snare drums) Worldmax.
For many years there's also been the confusing story about Mapex and Sonor, namely that Mapex were making some lines of the Force series drums. One of those stories that it's hard to get to the bottom of but I heard conflicting reports ranging from "yes they do" to "no they don't but their production lines are in the same building".
I know when I had one of the reissue Premier Genista kits a local drumshop owner who had links in to Premier asked me what colour it was. When I told him he nodded and smiled saying that it came from the "best factory". All very mysterious.
Click to expand...

Sonor and Mapex are both owned by the same company, KHS. They both make drums in the same factory but in different areas and production lines. The shells are different too.
 
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