drummers who can't read music notation
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Rattlin' Bones
Gold Member
JimmyM: I myself never inferred that it's a “reading vs feel” argument. I stated that the importance of reading is situational.
You are correct when you say people interested in pursuing music at a high level need to read music and be good sight readers. It's very important in those situations.
But not everyone is in that boat. Lots of folks have no such lofty aspirations. And they should not be disparaged for that. There have been several disparaging remarks about people in the latter boat who have no aspirations of seriously pursuing music at a high level. We've been shouted out by the pros on here telling us reading is still important and we're basically ignorant and misguided if we think otherwise. That the pros know best. These pros also in many instances teach, and their entire world revolves around sheet music and books. They cannot fathom a world where reading music isn't important. Like my current world: three blues gigs this week everything learned by everyone in band by ear. Reading is not important in this situation. Reading music when I was 16 years old (over 50 years ago) was very important I was in HS band we had to read music. In that situation it was very important. Now, for me, it's not all that important. Not sure why in 21 pages some of these folks still don't accept that premise.
Like the post above by WhereIsTheOne: "It must be incredible living with your level of mediocrity. How do you cope with knowing how distinctly average you are in all regards?". Mediocrity. Average. That's disparaging. Lots of similar posts talking down to us average drummers. But hey you know what: the average drummers in the real world are the majority of drummers in the real world. They use whatever sticks they have lying around. They buy their drums because of the way they look and they have no idea if the drums are birch mahogany maple or some other wood. They could care less about angles and reverse cuts of bearing edges, or how the plys of drums are laid down in alternating vertical to horizontal cross laminations. And that's what the elitist don't get. And still don't get after 21 pages -that there are lots of very happy drummers playing lots of gigs in situations where reading is not important.
I am not sure why that is so hard for folks to understand. But the insults are starting to fly now, and I expect the admins to start warning people to behave, followed by deleting the worst case posts, and finally shutting this thread down.
You are correct when you say people interested in pursuing music at a high level need to read music and be good sight readers. It's very important in those situations.
But not everyone is in that boat. Lots of folks have no such lofty aspirations. And they should not be disparaged for that. There have been several disparaging remarks about people in the latter boat who have no aspirations of seriously pursuing music at a high level. We've been shouted out by the pros on here telling us reading is still important and we're basically ignorant and misguided if we think otherwise. That the pros know best. These pros also in many instances teach, and their entire world revolves around sheet music and books. They cannot fathom a world where reading music isn't important. Like my current world: three blues gigs this week everything learned by everyone in band by ear. Reading is not important in this situation. Reading music when I was 16 years old (over 50 years ago) was very important I was in HS band we had to read music. In that situation it was very important. Now, for me, it's not all that important. Not sure why in 21 pages some of these folks still don't accept that premise.
Like the post above by WhereIsTheOne: "It must be incredible living with your level of mediocrity. How do you cope with knowing how distinctly average you are in all regards?". Mediocrity. Average. That's disparaging. Lots of similar posts talking down to us average drummers. But hey you know what: the average drummers in the real world are the majority of drummers in the real world. They use whatever sticks they have lying around. They buy their drums because of the way they look and they have no idea if the drums are birch mahogany maple or some other wood. They could care less about angles and reverse cuts of bearing edges, or how the plys of drums are laid down in alternating vertical to horizontal cross laminations. And that's what the elitist don't get. And still don't get after 21 pages -that there are lots of very happy drummers playing lots of gigs in situations where reading is not important.
I am not sure why that is so hard for folks to understand. But the insults are starting to fly now, and I expect the admins to start warning people to behave, followed by deleting the worst case posts, and finally shutting this thread down.
JimmyM
Diamond Member
You make some relevant points, Bones, although I do strongly disagree that it’s not important to know how to read, even in your situation. Reading is not just about learning to interpret dots on a staff. That said, if you’re happy, I’m happy for you.
To continue further flogging of this deceased equine 
I think that perhaps what is lost in the "debate" such as it is, an additional factor can very well be geographical in nature. Meaning the proximity to a larger metropolitan area.
What I'm meaning is this. I expect that perhaps many of those pushing back on reading and it's importance may very well live in an area not well served by the need for musicians with reading ability. In my example, I live in a city of about 35,000 folks. We have no theater to speak of, there is one community theater that hosts productions, but I'm, not familiar with them having an active pit band. perhaps they might have a musical production every now and then, but even so, I wonder if they sing to tracks. There is a community orchestra, which I believe is more classical in nature, and volunteer. There is a locally produced tv show with its own band (which sadly is shutting down production after this season) and I believe those folks read... There just aren't many opportunities to utilize that ability, in this part of the world. There are countless rock, blues, country and pop bands, and I cannot imagine any of them reading. (Certainly some of the players can and do, but I doubt any of them use a chart to learn a song as a band). So I can understand the mentality of someone not seeing the value, or perhaps the return on time spent, in learning ho to read charts. Around here. So if that's the case here, think about how this might apply to a lot of this country.
I'm not saying this to justify anyone being against learning it. Just trying to explain to some folks here that a lot of us live in communities where that skill might not ever be used, beyond one's own learning and reading, for their own sake. (Not while playing with others)
Again, I don't read, and think it would be good if I could. (Probably won't, at this stage of my life) Certainly young people starting out could greatly benefit from the ability, especially if they will be going on in school, and/or moving to other more populous parts of the world. I'm sitting put, lol.
I think that perhaps what is lost in the "debate" such as it is, an additional factor can very well be geographical in nature. Meaning the proximity to a larger metropolitan area. What I'm meaning is this. I expect that perhaps many of those pushing back on reading and it's importance may very well live in an area not well served by the need for musicians with reading ability. In my example, I live in a city of about 35,000 folks. We have no theater to speak of, there is one community theater that hosts productions, but I'm, not familiar with them having an active pit band. perhaps they might have a musical production every now and then, but even so, I wonder if they sing to tracks. There is a community orchestra, which I believe is more classical in nature, and volunteer. There is a locally produced tv show with its own band (which sadly is shutting down production after this season) and I believe those folks read... There just aren't many opportunities to utilize that ability, in this part of the world. There are countless rock, blues, country and pop bands, and I cannot imagine any of them reading. (Certainly some of the players can and do, but I doubt any of them use a chart to learn a song as a band). So I can understand the mentality of someone not seeing the value, or perhaps the return on time spent, in learning ho to read charts. Around here. So if that's the case here, think about how this might apply to a lot of this country.
I'm not saying this to justify anyone being against learning it. Just trying to explain to some folks here that a lot of us live in communities where that skill might not ever be used, beyond one's own learning and reading, for their own sake. (Not while playing with others)
Again, I don't read, and think it would be good if I could. (Probably won't, at this stage of my life) Certainly young people starting out could greatly benefit from the ability, especially if they will be going on in school, and/or moving to other more populous parts of the world. I'm sitting put, lol.
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bud7h4
Silver Member
I wouldn't say locked into one route, just not equipped for all routes.
bud7h4
Silver Member
bud7h4
Silver Member
Because "it's great if you can write things down."
Not because "It would have made me a real musician."
joedrum
Junior Member
Yeah given his background you'd have to believe Porcaro knew how to read. I just watched a video on here of him at a clinic saying he didn't read. That's not to say he couldn't. He said Zappa tried to get him to do some work and he'd say get Bozio. I don't think he liked to read and of course didn't need to. He said he'd just go over a song with the band then he'd have it - paraphrasing here of course. Which begs the question how many drummers have the ability to read and just choose not to. That could be a significant number. Also, I'd say there are many players out there that we have no idea whether they read or not. The main question the OP asked was what drummers out there didn't read. The secondary question we've been debating was an add on. Did Charlie, Ringo, Don Brewer, Cliff Davies and countless others read? I don't know.
This is an old thread and I admit, that I didn’t read everything, but my two cents:
You can be a very good drummer without reading - but if you call yourself a “professional Drummer” then reading is included - as teacher or in the studio. Rockstars and Buddy Rich have own rules eventually.
You can be a very good drummer without reading - but if you call yourself a “professional Drummer” then reading is included - as teacher or in the studio. Rockstars and Buddy Rich have own rules eventually.
MattRitter
Senior Member
The good news is that you can't go wrong by learning to read. In other words, there are only pros to it and no cons. Even the perceived "con" of time spent is reported to be relatively minimal by everyone who has gone through the process.
I imagine there are people reading this thread who are trying to decide whether or not they themselves should learn to read.
The consensus seems to be...
SURE! GO FOR IT!
Even the people holding the position that reading isn't "important" have said that it can sometimes be helpful. And I don't recall anyone at all saying that it actually does harm.
I imagine there are people reading this thread who are trying to decide whether or not they themselves should learn to read.
The consensus seems to be...
SURE! GO FOR IT!
Even the people holding the position that reading isn't "important" have said that it can sometimes be helpful. And I don't recall anyone at all saying that it actually does harm.
Dibalo Jonze
Member
21 pages? Over 400 posts! 13 years of
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Now I’m starting to wish I had never learned how to read English
?!%#$&!further flogging of this deceased equine
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Now I’m starting to wish I had never learned how to read English
dcrigger
Senior Member
That's great and fills in the dots a bit regarding Bonham...@RK1 Especially for you, it turns out that Bonham did make attempts to read and regretted not reading more later in his career:
View attachment 145616
12 ways to sound (and think!) like John Bonham
One of the most imitated and respected drummers of our time, John Bonham died at the age of 32, officially on September 25, 1980. He ...mixdownmag.com.au
This took me fewer than 20 seconds to find. Do you like my reply?
Wikipedia states that Bonham never took formal lessons, OK. But then also states after banging around on pots and pans since he was five, his mom gave him a snare drum when he was 10 - he didn't get his first drum set until he was 15!
So this helps confirms what I suspected - I mean, what does a kid do with the snare for FIVE years? My guess - he tries to learn how to play the snare drum.... which while listening to Max Roach, Gene Krupa and Buddy Rich (again from wikipedia), that means trying to suss out that whole rudimental/swing snare solo type stuff.... Stuff not easy to figure out by oneself, and an aspect of playing many self-taught guys in the modern era never get to. But for young Bonham this would be the early 60's - and snazzy hand to hand snare drum playing is just what drummers did - and what young beginners wanted to learn.
Thus "When I first started playing I used to read music" - of course, he did... because that's part of the path to learning basic march style snare drum playing. If you weren't taking lessons - you'd still get a book (Harr or whatever) and take yourself through it.
And this gets to the point I've been trying to make the whole time - just that little bit of pursuit of traditional snare playing - learning to read enough to play basic snare exercises and etudes - gives a young players a basic, fundamental background and understanding of the building blocks that figure into everything that is to come for that player. Even If They Never Read Another Piece of Music In Their Life.
Once again - another story that further convinces me that so many of those players that claim "they don't read" - may not read in their playing career, may not read well enough to professionally make use of - but did likely early on did what kids that may only have a snare drum do. They take a few lessons. Or pick-up and try to make sense of a basic drumming method book. And possibly going to it deep enough to end up with a better ability to hear and comprehend syncopations, phrase lengths, more complex rhythms, etc.
If nothing else these day, so they can end up being able to play like John Bonham.
Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX
Local Boob
yeah...I think that playing by ear is, in a way, making stuff up...or at least copying. Which might add another distinction as well? and i might be telegraphing my experienceas a kid here, but when I was young, if I could not copy a fill exactly, I would just make up a fill by what I thought it sounded like (mostly b/c I was learning Rush, Kansas etc on a 4 pc drum set, so I had to make things up by ear to mimic what I was hearing)
not always...there have been a few guys around town here who were like that long after starting playing...it is rare to see, but I remember they always had their notebooks, and don't go witht he flow very well if things get off....one guys name was Art, and he was a great guy in the studio...unless you asked him to change stuff on the fly...he would have to write it down first
this is true...and I am not in the camp that thinks that lack of reading ability makes you inferior. I definitely agree that it sets a limit, whether that is intentional or not. What I have leanred in my long time teaching though is that not everyone approaches, or understands information the same. We have to be adaptable in our dissemination of information, and how our students perceive it ,and then apply it.
Rock Salad
Silver Member
You guys did not learn your ABCs of reading music in elementary school? We learned song charts too with Mel Bay style chord tabs. It’s a sad state of our education system maybe.
I think pros who say they can’t read do know their ABCs and charts, just not at any kind of professional level of fluency. That is a whole other level for sure
I think pros who say they can’t read do know their ABCs and charts, just not at any kind of professional level of fluency. That is a whole other level for sure
Again two cents from me:
There are two different kinds of reading:
1. Just the rudiments:
these you read - if you’re not an analphabeth - without learning, but helps to understand, what you do.
2.Big Band or Orchestra charts:
If you don’t play that kind of music, you don’ need them….
Problem finally solved eventually - ok?!
Bernhard
There are two different kinds of reading:
1. Just the rudiments:
these you read - if you’re not an analphabeth - without learning, but helps to understand, what you do.
2.Big Band or Orchestra charts:
If you don’t play that kind of music, you don’ need them….
Problem finally solved eventually - ok?!
Bernhard
Chris Whitten
Platinum Member
Like I have said before...
I spent 2016 to 2019 playing in an unsigned band that played hundreds of shows in Europe. It was a 2+ hour set.
Several of the songs were very similar - similar chords, similar tempo, similar groove. One song might have a guitar intro with the drums coming in after 8 bars, the other similar song might start with guitar and hi-hat on 2 & 4. Over the course of a 2 hour show it was a lot to remember, plus the main guy in the band often wanted to tinker at the edges, change the phrase that ended the song, change the length of a guitar solo.
I got through it by notating these extra complications on my set list.
The two keyboard players in the band never learned the set, they read the whole show off iPad charts. I spent two weeks playing the show at home in my own time to learn it by ear as I didn't want to see people playing a rock show from charts, but writing down certain musical phrases and figures on the set list helped me never make a mistake during the show.
Chris Whitten
Platinum Member
I don't think that is true AT ALL.
The people in the reading camp have continuously and patiently explained their case.
The overwhelming point is that not reading is limiting - it limits your choices at any point in your life and it limits your ability to quickly learn things, whether that's rudiments, concepts or songs.
Yes, I think we can all agree if someone picks up the drums at college or in their early 20's they might be absolutely certain they never want to be professional, or they never want to play in the local amateur theatre, or the local hobby orchestra. But if you decide at 10 or 12 years old you don't need to learn to read you are limiting your life choices.
Finally, I had absolutely no idea at 25 what I would be doing at 65. I probably thought I would be retired and not even own a drum kit.
When I was 25 there were no computers, no mobile phones, no digital recording. Stuff changes, stuff evolves and your life evolves with it, so I am yet to see a compelling argument that not learning to read future proofs a drummer from a change in their life circumstances or changes in the music scene.
Chris Whitten
Platinum Member
Yeah, you know....the worst and most recent insult was aimed at me, from a non-reader to someone advocating reading. I don't mind.
And why do people continually ask for threads to be shut down?
joedrum
Junior Member
Nice poem Bernhard
