Avant Garde

This is the space I play in most of the time. This is a great comment .. especially the last statement ..

”But in the context of 'free' playing, you have both melodic, dynamic and texture approaches at your disposal but more importantly, you have ears and foresight....and other instrument can certainly approach rhythmic roles without drums. And in particular for drummers in an improv setting, they often have conductive influence in direction...but this only really works if you have other musicians in a listening mind-space otherwise is really is just noise....that 'fine line between stupid and clever'”

free playing is wonderful but there are “ rules “ otherwise it’s just crap.
Paul Motian was a master at this type of work and ironically hated by many for his work with Bill Evans.
it’s very freeing to be able to play what is needed with a group of like minded players knowing that everyone has a responsibility for keeping the music moving forward.
as Monk said “ just because your not the drummer it doesn’t mean you don’t have to keep time “
 
Stickandbrush said:
This is the space I play in most of the time. This is a great comment .. especially the last statement ..
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Thanks for the kind words, glad I am able to remember what I wrote before (otherwise may have missed this)
Stickandbrush said:
free playing is wonderful but there are “ rules “ otherwise it’s just crap.
Paul Motian was a master at this type of work and ironically hated by many for his work with Bill Evans.
it’s very freeing to be able to play what is needed with a group of like minded players knowing that everyone has a responsibility for keeping the music moving forward.
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I recall another Elvin quote of universal wisdom to music and beyond to relates what you just mentioned, something to the effect that the more freedom one has, the more discipline one needs. Always thought this was very true.

I was very fortunate to have a circulating community that did workshops/ensembles/performances on this type of music for a while. It afforded the opportunity to develop as a listener, explore compositional ideas and the outer-bounds of own's instrument. But more specifically with writing, it was an opportunity to try to crack to the mystery how to make consistently inspiring improv music...what was the line between magic and crap that seems so delicate. "Rules" as you stated or 'bounds' were one of the important tool in this respect, where giving musicians a problem to solve a MacGyver situation cooperatively to (hopefully) find creativity to inspire themselves along with others around them....or that was the intent rather than going a comfortable backlog of ideas that have already been used a million times where the player is bored before even playing. Herbie Handcock mentions his Miles' story all the time of limits he gave to challenge him like stop soloing while using his left hand or giving him riddles like 'don't play butter notes', ha....and it opened a new door to explore, I think it is similar to that.

I've been in other situations where the improv is more conducted or with a bandleader giving very specific directions...this is very different challenge. Some want to use the player as an extension of their expression to landscape the improv, it really depends how they 'use' the player in this situation.

A quick comment on composing and improvising because I've curiously come across several players who do not like to improvise at all but rather like everything in pre-arranged written musical environment while some improvisers struggle to focus on organized material. However, I've come to the conclusion that improvising and composing are the same thing; compositions are derived from improvising, just work that is edited and refined and collected for arrangement but it still comes from the same source. And improvising is nothing but instantaneous un-edit composition (and of course singular due one instrument) but the basic goals are the same (and why believe practicing one nurtures the other).
 
s1212z said:
Thanks for the kind words, glad I am able to remember what I wrote before (otherwise may have missed this)

I recall another Elvin quote of universal wisdom to music and beyond to relates what you just mentioned, something to the effect that the more freedom one has, the more discipline one needs. Always thought this was very true.

I was very fortunate to have a circulating community that did workshops/ensembles/performances on this type of music for a while. It afforded the opportunity to develop as a listener, explore compositional ideas and the outer-bounds of own's instrument. But more specifically with writing, it was an opportunity to try to crack to the mystery how to make consistently inspiring improv music...what was the line between magic and crap that seems so delicate. "Rules" as you stated or 'bounds' were one of the important tool in this respect, where giving musicians a problem to solve a MacGyver situation cooperatively to (hopefully) find creativity to inspire themselves along with others around them....or that was the intent rather than going a comfortable backlog of ideas that have already been used a million times where the player is bored before even playing. Herbie Handcock mentions his Miles' story all the time of limits he gave to challenge him like stop soloing while using his left hand or giving him riddles like 'don't play butter notes', ha....and it opened a new door to explore, I think it is similar to that.

I've been in other situations where the improv is more conducted or with a bandleader giving very specific directions...this is very different challenge. Some want to use the player as an extension of their expression to landscape the improv, it really depends how they 'use' the player in this situation.

A quick comment on composing and improvising because I've curiously come across several players who do not like to improvise at all but rather like everything in pre-arranged written musical environment while some improvisers struggle to focus on organized material. However, I've come to the conclusion that improvising and composing are the same thing; compositions are derived from improvising, just work that is edited and refined and collected for arrangement but it still comes from the same source. And improvising is nothing but instantaneous un-edit composition (and of course singular due one instrument) but the basic goals are the same (and why believe practicing one nurtures the other).
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Interesting take on comp v improv. It’s also interesting how many musicians cannot actually improvise. As people we pride ourselves on the years it’s takes to become competent on our instruments, how can so many never step back and look at the possibilities of what the instruments and by extension the player can do. A truly good leader will encourage the player to step outside the frame and explore what can be done, a good musician will do the same for themselves and the leader and the audience. Sometimes it is a massive failure but often it is brilliance that becomes a once in a lifetime experience for all.
I strive for that once in a lifetime experience whenever I play. I can think of no worse hell then playing the same thing or the same pieces all the time. But hey that’s just me.
I think it’s fantastic that people make music and provide entertainment for others and for themselves. I just connect the dots in a different fashion.
 
end Goat said:
Thanks for sharing! Only having two hands can be such a pain right?
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Which is why they invented loopers😂 Fellow drum brother of mine got heavy into the modular scene. Fun stuff. (Expensive too).

Merlin Ettore ..... another dude I follow.

 
harryconway said:
scene
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Crunchy, I like it! Yes, my partner does live loops occasionally and I have the mounts together to mount my little AKAI MPX8 sample player to my hi hat stand for some textural bits. This is us before adding the drums (no piano in this clip either, but the loop fodder is there, I think):
...there's much to explore!
 
end Goat said:
Crunchy, I like it! Yes, my partner does live loops occasionally and I have the mounts together to mount my little AKAI MPX8 sample player to my hi hat stand for some textural bits. This is us before adding the drums (no piano in this clip either, but the loop fodder is there, I think):

...there's much to explore!
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Wow ...... very cool. Kinda got a Mephista (Susie Ibarra, Ikue Mori, Sylvie Courvoisier) vibe to it.

 
No Way Jose said:
Are any forum members into avant garde music and drumming? Silver Apples is an example
but could include playing drums along with synthesizers making somewhat random sounds, or barking dogs or wind chimes.
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Analog synthesizers are like folk instruments now. They are experiencing a revival, but mostly because some people have been exposed to digital synths, and want to play with patch cables. Especially the west coast(silver apples), because most people prefer transistors, and silver apples didn't have transistors at the time I believe. The NoCoast synth owner had an interesting presentation on the early synths. I'll see if I can find it.
 
SmoothOperator said:
Analog synthesizers are like folk instruments now. They are experiencing a revival, but mostly because some people have been exposed to digital synths, and want to play with patch cables. Especially the west coast(silver apples), because most people prefer transistors, and silver apples didn't have transistors at the time I believe. The NoCoast synth owner had an interesting presentation on the early synths. I'll see if I can find it.
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It's definitely a golden era for synthesizers at the moment. I think the "Silver Apples" you're referring to is the historic "Silver Apples of the Moon" by Morton Subotnik
..which is the hallmark example for most people of a "west coast" approach to synthesis (as opposed to a "Switched on Bach" "east coast" approach, the latter using an organ style keyboard). The "No Coast" or "0 Coast" is a lovely semi-modular synth design by the equally lovely Tony Rolando of the Make Noise company. Modular synths present so many possibilities that one can build a system to accomplish a huge range of musical tasks, using both analog and digital hybridity without having to use a computer. Some folks explore new sounds and others make what amount to really expensive, fancy drum machines using Euclidean rhythm generator and all manner of stochastic and random processes. Of course what we call "electronic music", like "new music", or "experimental music" has been around for decades and decades at this point. It fascinating and , for some of us, intoxicating.

Here's a piece I wrote a while back about getting into modular synths if anyone is interested:

My relationship with eurorack – horizontalpitch

www.horizontalpitch.com www.horizontalpitch.com

...but I don't want to derail the thread too far.
 
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For a long time I considered myself to be basically a "free guy", but there's a whole improvised music scene I don't follow-- it seems to be focused on interesting percussion sounds, which is not what I'm into, I just play the drum set. To me free means I get to follow my ears, and play whatever the hell kind of music I want-- which sometimes means playing a good, tight arrangement.

No Way Jose said:
I'm wondering how to approach playing drums along with instruments that are not following a time signature or any particular rhythm.
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You listen to each other, vibe it, and try to play a general feeling of velocity rather than stating a specific tempo. People naturally form patterns and rhythms, so what the other musicians play isn't going to be totally random. You're still trying to create a conventionally good piece of music, you're just composing it on the spot, without many/most of the usual structures.

I know there are people who approach it antagonistically, who wouldn't agree with that.

end Goat said:
Is it really free "jazz" if we aren't beholden to swing?
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"Free jazz" is a marketing label, it's not a rule about how you're supposed to play. Neither the free nor the jazz part. I guess music gets called free jazz if it's played by musicians from a jazz/R&B lineage/community, not for having certain stylistic features.
 
Just wanted to note that "Fire Music", a fairly recent free jazz documentary, has recently become stream-able.

www.firemusic.org

FIRE MUSIC

www.firemusic.org www.firemusic.org

(Unfortunately it requires a subscription to the Criterion Channel, but it looks like they give you a month free and you can cancel anytime. I have been dying to see this so I took the plunge, at the monthly level, though I am sure I will cancel after seeing the film)
 
“Avant-garde a clue” —- George Harrison

“There’s a fine line between clever and stupid”—-Nigel Tufnel
 
JimmyM said:
“Avant-garde a clue” —- George Harrison

“There’s a fine line between clever and stupid”—-Nigel Tufnel
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thank you for the Spinal Tarp reference!!!! Still a relevant, and awesome movie!!!!
 
I feel like Avant Garde is one of those terms like Modernism. It used to mean advance guard and was associated with experimental music, but now it is more like baroque in the sense that it refers to a time when there was alot of experimentation in a specific way, though contemporary experimental music doesn't really resemble previous iterations of Avant Garde.

Contemporary experimental music is interesting to me Silver Apples, not so much.
 
No Way Jose said:
Are any forum members into avant garde music and drumming? Silver Apples is an example
but could include playing drums along with synthesizers making somewhat random sounds, or barking dogs or wind chimes.
Click to expand...
Is there a place here where people can collaborate and add tracks?
 
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