Are Jazz Drummers Overrated?

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My only problem with jazz: it's gotten to a point where something can sound like an absolute mess but afficianados will praise the HELL out of it by saying no one else can "understand" it. Here's a comment from a Max Roach video:

It's going to sound patronising, but Max is delivering a musical expression too advanced for many here to understand. There IS a thread of time running here in his playing, he knows where he is and what he's doing.
This is inevitably going to come across as arhythmic thrashing about to the musically inexperienced; it's not.
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This is why people get annoyed with jazz. The elitist snobs who are so far up their own asses that no matter how arrhythmic and atonal a "song" is, they'll go out of their way to espouse its virtues. There's a very real "emperor's new clothes" aspect to a lot of jazz that I see.

But there IS tons of awesome jazz out there. Tons.

EDIT: case in point, I love this vid of Max Roach: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS-xiX64HGQ Just him, a snare, and some brushes. Tons of awesomeness there. But there's also a lot of total crap he's done that people just won't admit is such.
 
Pollyanna said:
Bob, the way I see it, if he's been lurking for a long time then he probably would like to be part of the DW community. It wouldn't make much sense to make your first post one that guarantees hostility.

Some people might be weird enough to do it, sure, but I didn't get that vibe from his OP. He just sounded like he's inexperienced with this side of music.

PS. I can't view the Max vid because my browser blocks it.
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Polly, I have watched all of the Max vids that are on you tube. Anyone that has any clue about the drums can see from the vids that Max had it together.
I don't care if you were raised by roadies of a metal band. You can see and hear for yourself that Max could play.
When I was a kid I could respect Max! I wasn't into jazz then but I knew a great drummer when I saw one!
 
Okay, I said I wouldn't say anything so you'll just have to shoot me.

Sorry Bob, I'm going to have to take the other view on this.

I don't agree with the OPs blanket statement about jazz drummers, but I have to laugh when he picks up Max Roach right outta the chute! Reason I think it's funny is because I don't like Max Roach either and if he was the only jazz drummer I'd ever seen, I might think the same thing!

Am I the only one that thinks MR is sorta like the Keith Moon version of a jazz drummer? I can see the appeal and all, but his playing just doesn't do it for me.

I happen to like Keith Moon but I know a lot of drummers don't and I can see why. Just one of those damn things...
 
It's always the person with one post who comes in, says something to piss off a bunch of people, then leaves, never to comeback.
 
MikeM said:
Okay, I said I wouldn't say anything so you'll just have to shoot me.

Sorry Bob, I'm going to have to take the other view on this.

I don't agree with the OPs blanket statement about jazz drummers, but I have to laugh when he picks up Max Roach right outta the chute! Reason I think it's funny is because I don't like Max Roach either and if he was the only jazz drummer I'd ever seen, I might think the same thing!

Am I the only one that thinks MR is sorta like the Keith Moon version of a jazz drummer? I can see the appeal and all, but his playing just doesn't do it for me.

I happen to like Keith Moon but I know a lot of drummers don't and I can see why. Just one of those damn things...
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It's not a matter of liking Mike, It's a matter of observing and hearing.
I'm not a fan of Keith Moon but I can understand why his playing was recognized as being great.
 
MikeM said:
Am I the only one that thinks MR is sorta like the Keith Moon version of a jazz drummer? I can see the appeal and all, but his playing just doesn't do it for me.

I happen to like Keith Moon but I know a lot of drummers don't and I can see why. Just one of those damn things...
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I can agree. And if jazz guys would simply be willing to say "well to each his own" then that'd be fine, but SO many act like if you don't think Max Roach is the greatest drummer who ever lived, then that means you just don't "understand".

I love, LOVE George Kollias. I could watch him play all day long. If you don't like him, I'm not going to say it means you don't 'get it'. Just ain't your style. And I'll definitely admit that a LOT of metal drummers do nothing interesting at all.
 
MisterMixelpix said:
My only problem with jazz: it's gotten to a point where something can sound like an absolute mess but afficianados will praise the HELL out of it by saying no one else can "understand" it. Here's a comment from a Max Roach video:



This is why people get annoyed with jazz. The elitist snobs who are so far up their own asses that no matter how arrhythmic and atonal a "song" is, they'll go out of their way to espouse its virtues. There's a very real "emperor's new clothes" aspect to a lot of jazz that I see.

But there IS tons of awesome jazz out there. Tons.

EDIT: case in point, I love this vid of Max Roach: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS-xiX64HGQ Just him, a snare, and some brushes. Tons of awesomeness there. But there's also a lot of total crap he's done that people just won't admit is such.
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One more because things are getting silly again......

That quoted thread comment is pretty accurate response directed i'm sure at those who didn't know the insides of these type of language and dialogue at hand after a very negative comment was given I suspect. One man's disconnected noise is anothers complete musical nirvana...same could be said of some metal out there to some listeners. Get the point i'm making on perspective and the listening process?

Really depends what your ears and experience and knowledge base are "tuned" into. No snobery intended since that card's always the easy way out of taking a closer look at someones counter point of view deeper into their form of musical expression they play for keeps with honesty and intent which may be right out of your personal taste and comfort zone at that moment in time..... which can change over time believe me. This coming from a long time jazz veteran who dissed to the bone in his early teens the very music {drummers included} later he loves and plays with a complete passion professionally. Funny how things change over time isn't it with how your ears change when learning to develope a OPEN mind to all musical possibilities at hand to you as you musically mature the more you experience. Just offering something to ponder........
 
MikeM said:
Really? I'm not sure I'm following you on that.
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Im not a Metal drummer, but I can appreciate what the drummers are doing when I hear and see them play. I'm not a Hockey fan but I can watch a game and see that there is skill involved and appreciate it for what it is. I can see the great skating and the control of the puck. I can understand that what they are doing requires great skill.
 
Mr. Pasquini said:
I don't know what you guys think of jazz, those guys are all useless. None of them know anything about blast beats, or double bass, or riding the crash at high volume.

I guarantee you your precious Max CockRoach couldn't possibly hold down a blast beat at 230bpm for 64 bars. Those guys are complete woosies.

I think Jazz players are in league with "the man." All they do is play for these adults living their lives in the box by corporate America. And anyway, Jazz has been around for like... ever.... it's old and it's for old people.

I have an idea, let's see if you jazz players can get out of the retirement home and come and play an amphitheater... oh wait, you cant. None of you know how to turn your amps up over 3.

Have you ever seen a jazz player break a cymbal? Neither have I. That's because they are weak and should be crushed by the long arm of TRUE METAL. I mean I know jazz players who haven't even broken a stick in like... years. Proves that they have no passion or will to play.

Oh, and while we're at it, where's the distortion? I don't hear any, that makes your music

B O R I N G

I've been to the DMV and had a more exciting time then I did when I saw Bela Flek and Chick Corea.


IF IT AIN'T GOT LOT'S O' LOUD NOTES, IT AIN'T MUSIC.
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all a broken cymbal means is poor tech. so if you break cymbals alot learn how to hit them.
give any jazz pro a double pedal and you my friend would be screwed.
metal is one if the most un technical genres out there. no 5 lets no 7 lets, people like you cant recognize that metal is nothing more then running on a double , keeping time with a strait cymbal pattern, and playing triplets fills, get rid of the double petal learn how to use a hi hat, and attempt playing jazz, dont bash jazz because you cant play it, ill bash metal all i want because i can play it,

learn dynamics, metal has no dynamics, its just loud, how many studio drummer do you know that play only metal that can record on the needs of a pop band or a funk band or a jaz band? none,

how many jazz musicians can play all of them
 
I'm not a metal drummer or a jazz drummer but there are drummers from both camps who I like and who I don't like. I'm not so distant from either genre that I can't tell the drummers apart.

I also don't think it's necessary to be immersed in a genre to have an opinion on its drummers.

I think it has more to do with aesthetics.
 
zakhopper316 said:
all a broken cymbal means is poor tech. so if you break cymbals alot learn how to hit them.
give any jazz pro a double pedal and you my friend would be screwed.
metal is one if the most un technical genres out there. no 5 lets no 7 lets, people like you cant recognize that metal is nothing more then running on a double , keeping time with a strait cymbal pattern, and playing triplets fills, get rid of the double petal learn how to use a hi hat, and attempt playing jazz, dont bash jazz because you cant play it, ill bash metal all i want because i can play it,

learn dynamics, metal has no dynamics, its just loud, how many studio drummer do you know that play only metal that can record on the needs of a pop band or a funk band or a jaz band? none,

how many jazz musicians can play all of them
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Um, I think he was kidding... and I think we're doing pretty good about staying out of each others faces on this one, so how about lets keep it like that?
 
Weird. I couldn't log on, tried to reset my password, did everything, but to no avail. So now I'm someone else, I guess, back to being a junior member. Anyway, I'm just trying this to see what happens.

Edit: it works! Okay. Note to mods: can I just be con struct again?
 
Steamer said:
Really depends what your ears and experience and knowledge base are "tuned" into.
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I disagree. I found jazz on a radio broadcast from, I believe, Chicago back when I was fourteen ot fifteen years old and I immediately dug it, I "tuned into it" with no problem, although I had no experience or knowledge base. I just liked it. That was just me, though. None of my friends cared for it at all.
 
iwasconstruct said:
I disagree. I found jazz when I was fourteen ot fifteen years old and I immediately dug it, I "tuned into it" with no problem, although I had no experience or knowledge base. I just liked it. That was just me, though. None of my friends cared for it at all.
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So you loved the music of Ornette Coleman when you were 14 to the bone did you?. Maybe you did but please get real with the bigger overview i'm trying to get across Jay please for the sake of helping with this present discussion........ at 14 I loved Moon and thought Elvin didn't have a clue how to play the drums and told my friends that in no uncertain terms back then. Get my point how that changed a few years later? I could go into detail WHY once again if needed.

I believe I made a very valid point how our ears and taste and yes our very knowledge gained from experience about any form of musical appreciation and listening skills or taste in general can change over time. Simple logic and common sense combined with a open mind in my view.
 
Steamer said:
So you loved the music of Ornette Coleman when you were 14 to the bone did you?. Get real with the bigger overview i'm trying to get across Jay please for the sake of this present discussion........ at 14 I loved Moon and thought Elvin didn't have a clue how to play the drums and told my friends that in no uncertain terms. Get my point how that changed a few years later? I could go into detail WHY once again if needed.

I believe I made a very valid point how our ears and taste and yes our very knowledge gained from experience about any form of knowledge can change over time. Simple logic and common sense combined with a open mind in my view.
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No, to be honest the station I could tune into late at night only played pretty standard straight ahead stuff, but I liked it right away. Would I have felt the same way about Ornette Coleman? Really, I don't see why not. To this day Billy Higgins is one of my favorite drummers. The point is that I was pretty much just listening to the drummers.

But see, that was a long time ago. Back then I could read about how Mitch Mitchell loved Elvin Jones and how some other rock drummer loved Joe Morello, so naturally I had to find out about those guys. As far as technically superior drumming was concerned jazz was it.

It's not like like that anymore. There's so much information about drumming technique out there, so many monster technicians, and almost none of that has anything to do with jazz. It's a whole other world, and I think it's one that we just have to accept.
 
iwasconstruct said:
No, to be honest the station I could tune into late at night only played pretty standard straight ahead stuff, but I liked it right away.

But see, that was a long time ago. Back then I could read about how Mitch Mitchel loved Elvin Jones and how some other drummer loved Joe Morello, so naturally I had to find out about those guys. As far as technically superior drumming was concerned jazz was it.

It's not like like that anymore. There's so much information about drumming technique out there, and almost none of it has anything to do with jazz. It's a whole other world, and I think it's one that we just have to accept.
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I was just trying to make a point about the negative effects of bias and predudice on perception early on of which sometimes if the walls of personal bias/predjudice are strong enough will stop us from venturing into strange {at the time} less comforable places musically speaking down the road. Fear of the unknown can make us "stuck" in one space so to speak in some individual cases I have seen.

P.S. how's the reh's. for the May concert coming along by the way J.?
 
Its a stage a lot of young drummer go through where chops/speed is everything. Really all musicians deal with it at some point. It takes time to learn & appreciate composition.
 
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