Are Jazz Drummers Overrated?

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alandrums90

Junior Member
Does anybody else here feel that jazz drummers get way too much credit? Somebody recommended that I check out a guy named Max Roach. They said he was one of the greatest jazz drummers. Well, I looked him up on You Tube and I was hardly impressed. If this guy is one of the greatest I don't see how he could be anywhere near any of the great metal drummers. How is jazz harder to play than metal? How many jazz drummers could even come close to handling the speed that most metal songs are played? I just don't see what the big deal is when it comes to jazz drummers.
 

bobdadruma

Platinum Member
If you can watch a guy like Max play and not see what is special about him as well as other great jazz and bop players then I certainly will not be able to explain it to you.

I understand what makes fast metal drummers great also. I'm not bias to just jazz drummers. Metal drummers do wonderful things that I admire deeply.

Look again at jazz drummers from a different angle and see if you change your opinion.
Hint, It's not all about speed and power. There are other factors that make them great.
 

theindian

Senior Member
Before this thread turns into a huge spectacle. Lets remember all genres have their greats & musical greatness can't really be rated or compared. For the record I listen to and play almost all styles of music, so I am not biased toward metal or jazz.
 

mattsmith

Platinum Member
Does anybody else here feel that jazz drummers get way too much credit? Somebody recommended that I check out a guy named Max Roach. They said he was one of the greatest jazz drummers. Well, I looked him up on You Tube and I was hardly impressed. If this guy is one of the greatest I don't see how he could be anywhere near any of the great metal drummers. How is jazz harder to play than metal? How many jazz drummers could even come close to handling the speed that most metal songs are played? I just don't see what the big deal is when it comes to jazz drummers.
I ask that no jazz drummer comment here and just let this ignorant foolishness justifiably die on the vine. This one simply isn't worth it, and in no way can lead to a true dialogue. It's got a troll feel to it anyway.
 

zakhopper316

Silver Member
i have played both metal and jazz, metal was easier to learn because it loud and in you face, jazz is much much harder. and the great jazz drummers wiill be able play with there hands as fast if not faster then metal drummers. look up buddy rich and "the bad bad plus"(david king)
 

JPW

Silver Member
Oh no... Calculated technical show offs versus emotional improvisation. Who will win this time, this competition we call music? Which genre is the hardest? Who will survive? which is faster 300 bpm jazz or 300 bpm metal?!

Yes, I will take this thread very seriously.
 

moqtev

Member
In my opinion its not about what is harder, bigger or faster. Thats something you discuss if you're 10 years old or work for the Guinness Book of World Records :)

Max Roach has definitely played some great things in jazz - and if you don't see that, jazz might not be for you or you have find what you like in another jazzdrummer.

So my answer is listen to the music and dont worry about the rest :)
 

Paul Quin

Pioneer Member
must control myself . . . must not respond. Can't help it!! Please go and try to answer the question for yourself by watching and reading about those drummers and through such an exercise trying to understand the skill, technique, ear, feel, improvisational skills, subtlety and power of the music and musicians you ask about. Your ignorance of the subject shines like a beacon and radiates from your post. Get some more background and perspective, and then come back and maybe some of us old guys will try to address your question. Maybe . . .

Paul
 

Average

Senior Member
I ask that no jazz drummer comment here and just let this ignorant foolishness justifiably die on the vine. This one simply isn't worth it, and in no way can lead to a true dialogue. It's got a troll feel to it anyway.
Agreed, this has troll and trouble written all over it. Good to see you posting Matt.
 

aydee

Platinum Member
Somebody recommended that I check out a guy named Max Roach. They said he was one of the greatest jazz drummers. Well, I looked him up on You Tube and I was hardly impressed
Well, there were some others, that were impressed:


1944 : Rainbow Mist (with Coleman Hawkins)
1944 : Coleman Hawkins and His All Stars (with Coleman Hawkins)
1945 : Town Hall, New York, June 22, 1945 (with Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker)
1945 - 1948: The Complete Savoy Studio Recordings (with Charlie Parker)
1946 : Mad Be Bop (with J.J. Johnson)
1946 : Opus BeBop (with Stan Getz)
1946 : Savoy Jam Party (Don Byas Quartet)
1946 : The Hawk Flies (with Coleman Hawkins)
1947 : The Bud Powell Trip (with Bud Powell)
1947 : Lullaby in Rhythm (with Charlie Parker)
1947 : Charlie Parker on Dial (with Charlie Parker)
1948 : The Band that Never Was (with Charlie Parker)
1948 : Bird on 52nd Street (with Charlie Parker)
1948 : Bird at the Roost (with Charlie Parker)
1949 : Birth of the Cool (with Miles Davis)
1949 - 1953: Charlie Parker – Complete Sessions on Verve (with Charlie Parker)
1949 : Charlie Parker in France (with Charlie Parker)
1949 : Genesis (with Sonny Stitt)
1949 : The Stars of Modern Jazz at Carnegie Hall
1950 : The McGhee-Navarro Sextet (with Howard McGhee)
1951 : The Amazing Bud Powell (with Bud Powell)
1951 : The George Wallington Trip and Septet (with George Wallington)
1951 : Conception (with Miles Davis)
1952 : New Faces, New Sounds (with Gil Melle)
1952 : The Complete Genius (with Thelonious Monk)
1952 : Live at Rockland Palace (with Charlie Parker)
1953 : Jazz at Massey Hall (with Charlie Parker)
1953 : Mambo Jazz (with Joe Holiday)
1953 : Yardbird: DC-53 (with Charlie Parker)
1953 : Max Roach Quartet (Fantasy)
1953 : Max Roach and his Sextet (Debut)
1953 : Max Roach Quartet featuring Hank Mobley (Debut)
1953 : Cohn's Tones (with Al Cohn)
1953 : Diz and Getz (with Dizzy Gillespie and Stan Getz)
1954 : Brown And Roach Incorporated
1954 : Clifford Brown and Max Roach
1954 : Daahoud (Mainstream Records)
1954 : Study in Brown (with Clifford Brown)
1954 : More Study in Brown (with Clifford Brown)
1954 : Dinah Jams Featuring Dinah Washington
1955 : Clifford Brown with Strings (with Clifford Brown)
1955 : Relaxed Piano Moods (with Hazel Scott)
1955 : Introducing Jimmy Cleveland And His All Stars (EmArcy)
1955 : New Piano Expressions (with John Dennis)
1955 : Herbie Nichols Trio (with Herbie Nichols)
1955 : Work Time (with Sonny Rollins)
1955 : The Charles Mingus Quartet plus Max Roach (with Charles Mingus)
1956 : Clifford Brown and Max Roach at Basin Street
1956 : Sonny Rollins Plus 4 (with Sonny Rollins)
1956 : Introducing Johnny Griffin (with Johnny Griffin)
1956 : Max Roach + 4
1956 : The Magnificent Thad Jones (with Thad Jones)
1956 : Brilliant Corners (with Thelonious Monk)
1956 : Tour de Force (with Sonny Rollins)
1956 : The Music of George Gershwin: I Sing of Thee (with Joe Wilder)
1956 : Rollins Plays For Bird (Sonny Rollins Quintet)
1956 : Saxophone Colossus (with Sonny Rollins)
1957 : Jazz in 3/4 time
1957 : First Place (with J.J. Johnson)
1957 : With Strings (with Clifford Brown)
1957 : Sonny Clark Trio
1957 : Jazz Contrasts (with Kenny Dorham
1958 : Deeds, Not Words (with all new cast Ray Draper, Booker Little, George Coleman)
1958 : Max Roach/Art Blakey (with Art Blakey)
1958 : Freedom Suite (with Sonny Rollins)
1958 : Shadow Waltz (with Sonny Rollins)
1958 : Max Roach Plus Four on the Chicago Scene (Mercury)
1958 : Max Roach Plus Four at Newport (Mercury)
1958 : Max Roach with the Boston Percussion Ensemble (EmArcy)
1958 : Deeds not Words (aka Conversation) (Riverside)
1958 : Max Roac/Bud Shank - Sessions (with Bud Shank)
1958 : The Defiant Ones (with Booker Little)
1958 : Award-Winning Drummer (Time T)
1959 : A Little Sweet (aka. The Many Sides of Max )(Mercury)
1959 : Rich Versus Roach (with Buddy Rich)
1959 : Quiet as it’s Kept (Mercury)
1959 : Moon-Faced and Starry-Eyed (Mercury)
1960 : Tommy Turrentine with Stanley Turrentine
1960 : Stan ‘The Man’ Turrentine
1960 : Again! (Affinity)
1960 : Parisian Sketches (Mercury)
1960 : We Insist! - Freedom Now (Candid)
1960 : Long as you're living (Enja)
1960 : Uhuru Afrika (with Randy Weston)
1960 : Sonny Clark Trio (with Sonny Clark)
1961 : Percussion Bitter Sweet (Impulse! Records)(with Mal Waldron)
1961 : Straight Ahead (with Abbey Lincoln)
1961 : Out Front (with Booker Little)
1961 : Paris Blues (with Duke Ellington)
1962 : Money Jungle (with Duke Ellington and Charles Mingus)
1962 : Speak, Brother, Speak!
1962 : It's Time (Impulse! Records)(with Mal Waldron)
1962 : Drum Suite (with Slide Hampton)
1964 : Live in Europe: Freedom Now Suite (with Abbey Lincoln)
1964 : The Max Roach Trip Featuring the Legendary Hasaan (with Hasaan ibn Ali)
1966 : Drums Unlimited (Atlantic) (Leader, with James Spaulding, Freddie Hubbard, Ronnie Mathews, Jymie Merritt, Roland Alexander)
1966 : Stuttgart 1963 Concert (with Sonny Rollins
1968 : Sound as Roach (Atlantic)
1968 : Members, Don't Git Weary (Atlantic)
1971 : Lift Every Voice and Sing (with J.C. White Singers)
1972 : Newport in New York ‘72 (Roach on 2 tracks only)
1973 : Re:percussion (with M'Boom, Strata-East Records)
1975 : The Bop Session (with Dizzy Gillespie, Sonny Stitt, John Lewis, Hank Jones and Percy Heath)
1976 : Force: Sweet Mao-Suid Afrika '76 (duo with Archie Shepp)
1976 : Nommo (Victor)
1977 : Max Roach Quartet Live in Tokyo (Denon)
1977 : The Loudstar (Horo)
1977 : Max Roach Quartet Live In Amsterdam - It's Time (Baystate)
1977 : Solos (Baystate)
1977 : Streams of Consciousness (duo with Dollar Brand)
1978 : Confirmation (Fluid)
1978 : Birth and Rebirth (Duo with Anthony Braxton)
1978 : Long time at circus yorks
1979 : The Long March (duo with Archie Shepp
1979 : Historic Concerts (duo with Cecil Taylor)
1979 : One In Two, Two In One (duo with Anthony Braxton)
1979 : M'Boom Re:percussion (with M'Boom, Columbia Records)
1979 : Pictures in a Frame (Soul Note)
1979 : Live at the Bee Hive (with Clifford Brown, Columbia Records)
1980 : Chattahoochee Red (Columbia)
1982 : Swish (duo with Connie Crothers) (New Artists)
1982 : In the Light (Soul Note)
1983 : Max Roach Double Quartet Live At Vielharmonic (Soul Note)
1984 : Scott Free (Soul Note)
1984 : It’s Christmas Again (Soul Note)
1984 : Collage (with M'Boom, Soul Note)
1984 : Survivors (Soul Note)
1984 : Jazzbuhne Berlin ‘84 (Reperoire)
1985 : Easy Winners (Soul Note)
1986 : Bright Moments (Soul Note)
1989 : Max and Diz in Paris 1989 (duo with Dizzy Gillespie) (A&M)
1989 : Homage to Charlie Parker (A&M)
1991 : To the Max! (Enja)
1992 : Live at S.O.B.'s New York (with M'Boom, Blue Moon Records)
1995 : Max Roach With The New Orchestra Of Boston And The So What Brass Quintet (Blue Note)
1999 : Beijing Trio (Asian Improv)
2002 : Friendship (with Clark Terry) (Columbia)
 

Wavelength

Platinum Member
Some jazz songs are as fast as 400 bpm. No metal song has ever been that fast. Therefore jazz must be a superior style of music. Case closed.
 

Average

Senior Member
Trolls taste good though. How's it going Average? Should we get some popcorn while waiting for this thread to burst?
I already got some popcorn out but my guess is it will be locked very quickly. The Meg White thread was an interesting read. I am surprised it stayed so civil.
 

Michael McDanial

Senior Member
I ask that no jazz drummer comment here and just let this ignorant foolishness justifiably die on the vine. This one simply isn't worth it, and in no way can lead to a true dialogue. It's got a troll feel to it anyway.
You may very well be right Matt, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt just for the moment.

Does anybody else here feel that jazz drummers get way too much credit? Somebody recommended that I check out a guy named Max Roach. They said he was one of the greatest jazz drummers. Well, I looked him up on You Tube and I was hardly impressed. If this guy is one of the greatest I don't see how he could be anywhere near any of the great metal drummers. How is jazz harder to play than metal? How many jazz drummers could even come close to handling the speed that most metal songs are played? I just don't see what the big deal is when it comes to jazz drummers.
Assuming that your question is genuine, and not just to start trouble, I would say that first and foremost you have to get rid of the idea that lounder + faster = better. Metal and jazz are very different genres, and I think that you're coming in with preconceived notions. You're expecting great jazz drummers to play similarly to great metal drummers. You can't listen to Max Roach expecting him to sound like one of the great metal drummers. It doesn't work that way. You need to listen to the music on it's own terms. I highly suggest you check out jazz drummers like Buddy Rich, Jo Jones, Sonny Payne, Louie Bellson, Gene Krupa, Elvin Jones, and Tony Williams for starters.

Remember: Get rid of any preconceived notions that you have and listen to the music on it's own terms! Saying that Max Roach isn't a great drummer because he doesn't live up to your standard of what makes a great metal drummer is like saying Michael Jordan isn't a great athlete because he wasn't good at baseball.

Oh no... Calculated technical show offs versus emotional improvisation. Who will win this time, this competition we call music? Which genre is the hardest? Who will survive? which is faster 300 bpm jazz or 300 bpm metal?!

Yes, I will take this thread very seriously.
Love it JPW!
 

Michael McDanial

Senior Member
All this thread needs is one of these. PLEASE.
I say for now we just give him the benefit of the doubt. I'd rather that a young kid come here with a question like this with the possibility that he will open up his eyes after listening to some of the suggestions here, rather than have him hold on to this preconceived idea without ever really looking into the matter.
 

mattsmith

Platinum Member
I say for now we just give him the benefit of the doubt. I'd rather that a young kid come here with a question like this with the possibility that he will open up his eyes after listening to some of the suggestions here, rather than have him hold on to this preconceived idea without ever really looking into the matter.
Michael, you're a nice guy. But there's nothing here to truthfully indicate the threadstarter is a kid. After years of watching these fires start, it has been my observation that most of this stuff begins with a much older agenda ridden troll, who was previously banned for similar reasons.
 

GruntersDad

Administrator - Mayor
Staff member
Kids like to put their birth year in their screen name. But that makes this kid 20 years old. And I realize that this guy is equating greatness with speed alone. These types are impossible to change. They listen to one type of music, they play one type of music because it is easy and requires no skill other than speed. I say lock the thread and let him learn the hard way. There is no changing the mind of his kind. Sorry but that's my opinion.
 

Thaard

Platinum Member
Jazs sux lol. Tarvis Bakrer and Joye Jordsion is bettaaaar! They pley dubble base fastar!!!11
 
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