How do you know when you have good timing?
- Thread starter gusty
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NUTHA JASON
Senior Administrator
there are lots of ways and cues. a frown from the bassist. the singer battles to get to their notes. talk to the guys. record yourself.
among my students i usually see a good ability to keep time when playing a beat. the problem occours when there is a change of beats (ie verse to chorus) or a fill. one preactice regime i use with them to combat that is sort of a game. they set their metronome at a comfortable speed (80 bpm) and play time then they do a fill. they must end the fill with a crash on the one and then, here's the game part, they must play the fill exactly the same every measure four times in a row. then they must change one thing about the fill (dynamics, which toms they hit, add a flam etc) and repeat that four times in a row and so on.
the next step is to get the student to play this game but with the hihat being pedalled throughout the fills.
another game for the more advanced pupil is to instruct them where in the measure the fill must start. so they have to fill up an odd length of time with rolls flams etc until they find the one of the next measure.
but here's the crunch. in any stage of these exercise games i may ask them to not use the metronome (usually to start off i'll sit and click sticks for them ...and just get softer over time until they are keeping the time in their heads) i discourage counting during fills.
j
among my students i usually see a good ability to keep time when playing a beat. the problem occours when there is a change of beats (ie verse to chorus) or a fill. one preactice regime i use with them to combat that is sort of a game. they set their metronome at a comfortable speed (80 bpm) and play time then they do a fill. they must end the fill with a crash on the one and then, here's the game part, they must play the fill exactly the same every measure four times in a row. then they must change one thing about the fill (dynamics, which toms they hit, add a flam etc) and repeat that four times in a row and so on.
the next step is to get the student to play this game but with the hihat being pedalled throughout the fills.
another game for the more advanced pupil is to instruct them where in the measure the fill must start. so they have to fill up an odd length of time with rolls flams etc until they find the one of the next measure.
but here's the crunch. in any stage of these exercise games i may ask them to not use the metronome (usually to start off i'll sit and click sticks for them ...and just get softer over time until they are keeping the time in their heads) i discourage counting during fills.
j
gusty
Platinum Member
Funny thing you say that about the bassist. At our last practice we were arguing about time keeping. I had a click track through headphones (this is the first time ive done this with the band, so i was expecting us to lose (or gain, but most likely lose) time.) After a few runs through he said to take the headphones off because i sounded crap with them on (not playing with emotion, not coming in on cues and so forth). I was saying that was wrong- I couldnt keep time, and the metronome proved that. He hasn't had any proper musical training, so he doesn't know these things, he just doesn't get it. Anyway, he has now left the band. Getting back on topic...
My problem is that I get a tempo, but i dont know if im slowing down or speeding up or keeping it. In out school jazz band, the instructor has been telling me im not keeping time, although i think im getting better. How do you actually develope you're internal clock? Does this occur through practise with a metronome? Wouldn't practise without a metronome just keep you at the same level time keeping? I'm a bit confused...
My problem is that I get a tempo, but i dont know if im slowing down or speeding up or keeping it. In out school jazz band, the instructor has been telling me im not keeping time, although i think im getting better. How do you actually develope you're internal clock? Does this occur through practise with a metronome? Wouldn't practise without a metronome just keep you at the same level time keeping? I'm a bit confused...
funkster5TP
Member
It all depends on the musical situation. I've done gigs in the past at larger venues with a female solo singer. All her music had been written out and the whole rhythm section played to the click. This is alot easier in some ways but this was a session band and we had little rehearsal time.
If your playing less "popy" stuff, say with a band or in a group where there is more room for improvisation then you have to rely on your internal rhythm and sense of time.
The way i did it was to take a click track and play grooves and rudiments to certain tempos. I started at 35bpm and i moved up 5bpm at a time. I only moved up when i was confident that the one i was practicing was solid enough that i would be confident playing it at a gig or in the studio. This gave me a good sense of how fast certain tempos should be so if in a depping situation someone said a song was a certain tempo it wouldn't be a problem.
I think it's important to be able to play at all tempos not just fast medium and slow. A good marker to work from is 60bpm. You just count seconds and your perfectly in time. This means you can get a perfect 120bpm and a perfect 30 bpm. Once you have them it is easy to estimate tempos in between.
Once you are confident playing at any tempo then you have to work out a way of keeping yourself in time when playing without a click in a musical situation. Most drummers use their left foot to keep time. They play quarter notes or eighth notes on their hi-hat. I have found this is the easiest way to keep time. When you're playing your hats you can keep time with your left heel. There are co-ordination issues here but it's just practice!
Once you can take any tempo and keep time with your left foot then time keeping should become alot easier. Your question was "how do you know when you have good timing?" and the answer is you don't. You just have to be confident that you've put the hard work and your playing is solid. Then people will TELL YOU that you have good time keeping.
Hope that helps
D
If your playing less "popy" stuff, say with a band or in a group where there is more room for improvisation then you have to rely on your internal rhythm and sense of time.
The way i did it was to take a click track and play grooves and rudiments to certain tempos. I started at 35bpm and i moved up 5bpm at a time. I only moved up when i was confident that the one i was practicing was solid enough that i would be confident playing it at a gig or in the studio. This gave me a good sense of how fast certain tempos should be so if in a depping situation someone said a song was a certain tempo it wouldn't be a problem.
I think it's important to be able to play at all tempos not just fast medium and slow. A good marker to work from is 60bpm. You just count seconds and your perfectly in time. This means you can get a perfect 120bpm and a perfect 30 bpm. Once you have them it is easy to estimate tempos in between.
Once you are confident playing at any tempo then you have to work out a way of keeping yourself in time when playing without a click in a musical situation. Most drummers use their left foot to keep time. They play quarter notes or eighth notes on their hi-hat. I have found this is the easiest way to keep time. When you're playing your hats you can keep time with your left heel. There are co-ordination issues here but it's just practice!
Once you can take any tempo and keep time with your left foot then time keeping should become alot easier. Your question was "how do you know when you have good timing?" and the answer is you don't. You just have to be confident that you've put the hard work and your playing is solid. Then people will TELL YOU that you have good time keeping.
Hope that helps
D
gusty
Platinum Member
Yeah it does. Thanks for that. But how do I practise getting my timing without a metronome solid?
funkster5TP
Member
A good way of doing that is to play along with a click and then stop it and play without it for a while and then turn it back on and see if your still in time. Also for practice with estimating tempos you can start playing where you think a tempo is and then turn the click on and see where you are.
I think you'll find that playing with the click and just practicing lots will improve your time keeping when your not playing to a click. If you get really solid with a click when you practice your practicing in perfect time. Because you've practiced like this it will make your groove playing and time awareness really solid because your body is used to playing like this. It will become natural to play in time.
let me know how it goes, cheers
D
I think you'll find that playing with the click and just practicing lots will improve your time keeping when your not playing to a click. If you get really solid with a click when you practice your practicing in perfect time. Because you've practiced like this it will make your groove playing and time awareness really solid because your body is used to playing like this. It will become natural to play in time.
let me know how it goes, cheers
D
Jeff Almeyda
Senior Consultant
Singing is a great way of developing your clock. Set the metronome at 60 BPM. Now sing 16ths (imitate a closed hi-hat sound) to that beat while playing. You now have two layers of timekeeping. The external (what everyone hears) and the internal (what you are singing to yourself)
The trick is to keep that flow of sixteenths (or 8ths or whatever subdivision works) going in your mind no matter what you are playing "on the outside". You are not counting 1234 so it's a little more musical and natural. It also forces you to concentrate. Once you develop that ability you will be more able to play solid time with or without a click
Another exercise is to sing and/or play a measure of eighths, followed by a measure of 8th note triplets followed by a measure of 16ths. You need to be able to go back and forth between these note subdivisions at will without screwing up the time. Use a click for this one.
Check out Billy Ward's video's. He's got some great time keeping concepts. Also buy a copy of The New Breed by Gary Chester and get busy on it.
Relax. Playing WITH a click also improves your playing without one because your mind is becoming conditioned to accurate tempo. Just hearing where you naturally fall relative to the click raises your tempo awareness.
k3ng
Silver Member
Here's what I did and it worked for me. Although don't neglect your metronome practice. This one can be done anywhere anytime if you've got a radio on or something. Just play the beats to the song, simple beats, or count your 3's or 4's. Turn off the radio, keep counting for a period of time and turn the radio back on. See if you're still in check. Slowly try extending the periods of time that the radio is off.
So you can use this as a side practice when you're not at your kit. It really works to develop your internal clock. Even better if you try listening to a song you seldom hear.
So you can use this as a side practice when you're not at your kit. It really works to develop your internal clock. Even better if you try listening to a song you seldom hear.
Wavelength
Platinum Member
There are different ways you can practice with a metronome. Here are a few:
1) Click on 2 and 4.
2) Click on 1.
3) Click on the upbeat of 2 and 4.
4) Click on the upbeat of 1.
5) Click on the last 8th note triplet of each quarter note.
6) Click on the last 8th note triplet of 2 and 4.
7) Click on the last 8th note triplet of 1.
8) Click on the second 16th note of each quarter note.
9) Click on the fourth 16th note of each quarter note.
10) Click on the second 16th note of 2 and 4.
11) Click on the fourth 16th note of 2 and 4
12) Click on the second 16th note of 1.
13) Click on the fourth 16th note of 1.
This sort of practice will help your internal time, because there's no quarter note pulse to guide you -- you have to keep the time steady all by yourself.
1) Click on 2 and 4.
2) Click on 1.
3) Click on the upbeat of 2 and 4.
4) Click on the upbeat of 1.
5) Click on the last 8th note triplet of each quarter note.
6) Click on the last 8th note triplet of 2 and 4.
7) Click on the last 8th note triplet of 1.
8) Click on the second 16th note of each quarter note.
9) Click on the fourth 16th note of each quarter note.
10) Click on the second 16th note of 2 and 4.
11) Click on the fourth 16th note of 2 and 4
12) Click on the second 16th note of 1.
13) Click on the fourth 16th note of 1.
This sort of practice will help your internal time, because there's no quarter note pulse to guide you -- you have to keep the time steady all by yourself.
NUTHA JASON
Senior Administrator
all this is good advice.
playing along to cds and the radio is also good because the recorded song will not change its time with you as a real band will be forced to. that way you will in fact be forced to adjust to the timeof the record and it helps youfeel your way through the song. it helps you listen to clues or markers in the music and develop a time instinct.
j
playing along to cds and the radio is also good because the recorded song will not change its time with you as a real band will be forced to. that way you will in fact be forced to adjust to the timeof the record and it helps youfeel your way through the song. it helps you listen to clues or markers in the music and develop a time instinct.
j
Spreggy
Silver Member
Hey Gusty, I think one thing that should be automatic for you is whenever you practice anything, you turn on the metronome. I have pads in two rooms and both have mets by them, the drum room has one, they are always on it seems. If you are always practicing to perfect time, you will know when it's off You'll also get a feeling for what the tendancies of rushers and draggers are, the guitar guy that launches his solo like he's hitting the gas, or the horn player that makes the big, dramatic show of inhaling before he drags his butt into his solo lol. Give those guys solid time to hear for sure.
Everybody thinks they know great time, but the only one who really knows is the guy who spends tons of time with the click.
Everybody thinks they know great time, but the only one who really knows is the guy who spends tons of time with the click.
gusty
Platinum Member
Gusty,
This one takes time so be patient. It also depends on how much you practice. Also depends how good you want your timing, if you want perfect timing it could take years of intense training. There are very few people born with perfect time. It is kind of like having perfect pitch- very very few people are just born with it, both take alot of training. We as drummers have a tough job because we are expected to keep good time as soon as we start playing our instrument. Singers and guitarist can work their way around not having perfect pitch, but it is hard for us work around not having great timing.
First off, you are not the only one with this problem. There are alot great drummers out there who's timing is not greatest. So don't feel like you are on an island all by yourself. I think that there are a lot of great suggestions in this thread and I would like to add just a few more to help you out.
1. Slow your metronome down. Even as slow 40 BPM. Why, you might ask? There are not many songs you are going to play at 40 BPM. However, playing that slow helps you understand how much space is between each pulse. Count out loud and practice simple qtr. note, 8th and 16th note beats. Try and hold this for twenty minutes.
2. Change the placement of the pulse (click). Start your beat on the ONE but have the click on the &s. Once you are comfortable with this change it to the Es and the As. This helps your internal clock realize that it doesn't matter where the pulse is placed. You will be surprised how different this feels even though your not changing where you starting the beat.
Thats about the only other additions that I have. There is not one way to get great timing and you have to practice multiple ways to build internal clock. Remember, don't get frustrated most drummers who ends up putting a click in their ear go through the initial shock of realizing they don't have the great time they thought they had. Don't kill yourself by setting an intense practice schedule. Start out with a just 30 minutes a day, then turn up the intensity once you are a little more comfortable. Best of luck.
NUTHA JASON
Senior Administrator
Nice post jr
i think it might be useful to define the word time in terms of drumming.
for me perfect time is not only being able to hold a tempo but identify one. a person with perfect pitch can hear a note played on a piano and correctly identify it by name and also sing a named note as well. so to with drums. a perfect time individual would be able to identify BPM from hearing a track and also play a beat at a called for BPM without a metronome.
steady time implies a person who can hold a tempo throughout a song
intuitive time might be someone who can use time non-robotically but more expressively.
IMO
j
i think it might be useful to define the word time in terms of drumming.
for me perfect time is not only being able to hold a tempo but identify one. a person with perfect pitch can hear a note played on a piano and correctly identify it by name and also sing a named note as well. so to with drums. a perfect time individual would be able to identify BPM from hearing a track and also play a beat at a called for BPM without a metronome.
steady time implies a person who can hold a tempo throughout a song
intuitive time might be someone who can use time non-robotically but more expressively.
IMO
j
Totally, agree. I was just trying to draw a parallel with other musicians. Maybe that wasn't the best example but I think everyone gets the point I was trying to get accross.
jonescrusher
Pioneer Member
Your goal when using a metronome is to not hear the clicks, i.e. your strokes are so spot on that you've buried the click.
Secondly, you need to work on eliminating any flamming between limbs on the kit. Even being able to recognise that unintentional flamming is happening in your playing can take many years of listening and playing experience. Once you can hear that it is happening your job is to 'calibrate' your limbs, making those tiny adjustments to ensure that whatever voices you're sounding are being sounded in complete unison. I experience a distinguishable feeling when my limbs are playing accurately, with no flamming. Once you can latch on to that feeling (or pocket, i suppose) you're well on the road to good timing.
Being able to control each limb to the extent that no flamming occurs is likely to require parity in strength and development, so you'll likely need to work on your weaker hand and foot to ensure no one hand or foot is of dominant strength.
As per usual, these adjustments and improvements take place over years, not weeks.
Secondly, you need to work on eliminating any flamming between limbs on the kit. Even being able to recognise that unintentional flamming is happening in your playing can take many years of listening and playing experience. Once you can hear that it is happening your job is to 'calibrate' your limbs, making those tiny adjustments to ensure that whatever voices you're sounding are being sounded in complete unison. I experience a distinguishable feeling when my limbs are playing accurately, with no flamming. Once you can latch on to that feeling (or pocket, i suppose) you're well on the road to good timing.
Being able to control each limb to the extent that no flamming occurs is likely to require parity in strength and development, so you'll likely need to work on your weaker hand and foot to ensure no one hand or foot is of dominant strength.
As per usual, these adjustments and improvements take place over years, not weeks.