How do you know when you have good timing?

NUTHA JASON said:
among my students i usually see a good ability to keep time when playing a beat. the problem occours when there is a change of beats (ie verse to chorus) or a fill. one preactice regime i use with them to combat that is sort of a game. they set their metronome at a comfortable speed (80 bpm) and play time then they do a fill. they must end the fill with a crash on the one and then, here's the game part, they must play the fill exactly the same every measure four times in a row. then they must change one thing about the fill (dynamics, which toms they hit, add a flam etc) and repeat that four times in a row and so on.
the next step is to get the student to play this game but with the hihat being pedalled throughout the fills.
another game for the more advanced pupil is to instruct them where in the measure the fill must start. so they have to fill up an odd length of time with rolls flams etc until they find the one of the next measure.

but here's the crunch. in any stage of these exercise games i may ask them to not use the metronome (usually to start off i'll sit and click sticks for them ...and just get softer over time until they are keeping the time in their heads) i discourage counting during fills.

j
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Hello Nutha

Those last few posts brought me back to this first post of yours, which I had originally missed.

First a few comments. I do a similar routine to practice timing during fills.

I have this book http://www.amazon.com/Mel-presents-...4641775?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175024695&sr=1-4 full of one-bar rhythms and fills, and the way I use the fill portion is as following: I’ll play a simple groove, usually much less busy that the ones in the book, and I’ll pick one given fill, which I’ll insert every four bars. When I’m comfortable, I do the following variations:

1) Keep the metronome on quarters, but remove one, two or three beats from the fill, randomly.

2) Same as above, but keeping the metronome only on the downbeat

Then, if I’m really into it, I’ll move the click a few beats up or down, play 10-15 bars of groove, and do each variation again.

Now about the counting thing, I also don’t quite get why you discourage it. When I practice “variation 2”, I find it much easier to land properly on the next downbeat if I “sing” the quarter note. I don’t think I really go “1-2-3-4”, but there is some sort of pulse-keeping going on in my head which must be very close to it.

I also find counting useful when playing other time signatures. Our lead guitar often comes up with riffs in 5 or 7 (which never make it as actual songs – but that’s another story). Because I am so used to play in 4/4, I often end up relying on counting to insert fills in these, at least until I become comfortable with the groove.
 
When i go to bigband or to orcestrer, there are about 20 musicians, they are unritmical, never played with metronome, so they drops me out of time.
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Stop the band! I've been working with a big band for a while, and if people come in late or drag it hard and don't respond immediately when I drop a loud tap or two in to help them find their way back fast, I stop the band. Then I'll say "Hey we're way off here" and everybody plays it tight next time. I guess part of it is your band has to be of the type that appreciates how important the time is. I'm fortunate that the horn section I have besides being the biggest offenders is also quick to admit they're dragging.
 
see jonot... shuffle knows how to motivate his ideas.

to shuffle.
being self taught i never even was really aware of counting fills until i had been playing drums for more than 10 years. my fill vocabulary gradually grew in terms of their length. i developed an instinct for when a fill should start and where it's ene had to come. some fills have a built in pulse because they have bass drum or hihat going beneath the hand stuff but others are just arhythmic and full of expression, creating tension which is resolved when i crash in on the 'one'. my first fills where all just 2 quarters in length and usually only on the snare. then things grew from there. i can look on this in retrospect and i am happy that i have this facility. it is a freedom from numbers. it doesn't help much if i want to write a drum part down (almost never) but literally the only time i count at a gig will be the number of beers i might drink (although i'm quite the teatotaller now). from my point of view counting fills is the same as looking at letters rather than reading a sentence.

i try to attempt to instill that instinct for the duration of a fill and the feel for where it should go in my pupils by not getting them to count a fill but rather beat box it and play it. i use call and answer type approaches in my lessons too to great effect. i have found that counted fills can be come very regular and robotic. a little chaos goes a long way.

j
 
whats the point of counting it anyway?
unless playing in a time signature which is unfamilar to the player, or they have just started out, wouldn't you be able to just feel when to come down on one?
 
When people confuse your 2-4 backbeat on snare or left foot pulse on the cowbell for a click-track....


jonot said:
How about you back up your way of thinking?
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How about you read post #44 and #46 before saying anything else. I agree with feeling the time as opposed to counting it out. Sure, I still count in my head when I'm reading from sheet music, but not when I'm playing. Read some of Gavin Harrison's posts about not getting counting and maths involved as opposed to playing from feel; he also says it really well in his interview with him in Feb 07 issue of Modern Drummer.
 
I create a click track with Audacity and then insert silences randomly into the click. Doing it randomly helps you concentrate more becouse you dont know when it's coming. You can make the silence as long or as short as you want and then see if you're still hitting it when the click comes back on.
Challenge yourself and see your improvment by making the gaps longer and longer and the tempo slower.
 
that's goodadvice CJ

and jotnot
How about you read post #44 and #46 before saying anything else
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zzzzzzzing! (thanks ozzy)

now jotnot, you're new here so i'll be nice. read whole threads before adding your two pence worth. always back up your opinions especially if they are opposed to someone who posted before you and think before posting.

j
 
NUTHA JASON said:
terrible terrible terrible post.

care to back your opinion up, genius?
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OK, I'll back him up because what he said was right even though it wasn't especially polite. Thing is that if you don't count and don't know how to count something you are not totally aware of what you are actually doing. Counting just makes you much more in control of the pulse and the rhythm. By steadily counting (especially whilst practising) you have an ongoing pulse in your mind that you can always rely on.

If you don't count you don't know what you are playing and you are not totally in control of what you are playing. That is as if you were doing something but you don't know exactly what you are doing and you don't know exactly how you are doing it. By counting you analyze your playing and you are controlling yourself - this are the two most effective things to get better.

Of course: If I play a gig with a band that I know very well I won't count. But if the music is unfamiliar or if I have to sightread something (and in many situations this will happen) I will count even if I am on stage.

So yes: Mabye you'll have to back up your way of thinking. You should NEVER EVER discourage anybody of counting. To put this quite drastically: Only teacher that suck would do that, and mostly they would do it because they don't know how to count themselves. If i would meet another drummer who has some timing issues and he would tell me: "Well, my teacher advices me not to count during fills and rather try to "feel" the fill." I'd for sure tell him: "Get a new teacher, I have time on Wednesdays."
 
i agree with most of what you say sickrick but that last paragraph is rubbish and actually trollish and you know it. implications aside, my original point was to move my pupils away from counting AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. so they can play a gig with a band and not count as you say you yourself do (as do i). that's what i meant with the imagery of scaffolding. i think my posts were pretty clear that i don't immediately squash counting but i also encourage feeling the fill through. i'm asking now that this doesn't become another semantics debate as i reiterate i totally agree with this...

OK, I'll back him up because what he said was right even though it wasn't especially polite. Thing is that if you don't count and don't know how to count something you are not totally aware of what you are actually doing. Counting just makes you much more in control of the pulse and the rhythm. By steadily counting (especially whilst practising) you have an ongoing pulse in your mind that you can always rely on.

If you don't count you don't know what you are playing and you are not totally in control of what you are playing. That is as if you were doing something but you don't know exactly what you are doing and you don't know exactly how you are doing it. By counting you analyze your playing and you are controlling yourself - this are the two most effective things to get better.

Of course: If I play a gig with a band that I know very well I won't count. But if the music is unfamiliar or if I have to sightread something (and in many situations this will happen) I will count even if I am on stage.
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but that last paragraph and any like it will not be allowed

j
 
NUTHA JASON said:
but that last paragraph and any like it will not be allowed

j
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No, it was not rubbish and I totally stand for it. I honestly believe you that you encourage your students to count and it is important that you do. But as you said in your first post: Some guys have trouble holding the time in transitions. But then ESPECIALLY in these transitions it is important to count and - as I believe - dangerous NOT to count. It is HARD to count, but drumming in itself is hard and not doing something on the drums because it might be harder is a cop out (watch the Tony Williams clinic, he sais that quite clearly).

So my last paragraph maybe was harsh - but it was true. A teacher should never ever discourage someone from counting. Especially guys with timing issues (and i believe we were talking about these kind of guys....).

You see: Students always will have a tendency NOT to count so that is something you don't have to teach them - they will do that on their own. I always tell my students this: "If you are on stage or in your rehearsal room you can do whatever you like, but as long as you are in my drumclass you COUNT. If you can do that without working on it - fine. But 99.9% of all students have to WORK on that and they realize this when they are in my class."

So mamy times as a teacher you get replys from students that are like this: "I've worked on that thing (whatever it is) and can play it." So I ask them to play and count and they can't. They then tell me that they can play it without counting - I let them do that and usually what they do is allright but not great. So then I have them play at a third of the tempo and they just fall apart. THEN I have them play at that tempo and count and boom: It works.

Really: Counting is one of the most overlooked and important issues of playing drums and playing them in time.
 
You see: Students always will have a tendency NOT to count so that is something you don't have to teach them - they will do that on their own. I always tell my students this: "If you are on stage or in your rehearsal room you can do whatever you like, but as long as you are in my drumclass you COUNT. If you can do that without working on it - fine. But 99.9% of all students have to WORK on that and they realize this when they are in my class."
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An excellent point. i agree there is a natural attrition away from counting. i think this occours particularly when a specific fill has been well learned - a part of the drummer's personal fill vocabulary.

you are obviously a teacher yourself sickrick so i know we are on the same page, as often one does need to break down a new fill for a pupil by showing them where in a bar it starts and how it can be counted for example 1 2 3e a4e& and we might also use words to describe a fill like tommy igoe's description of the 'funky chicken' fill. these scaffolds help the instruction, the memory and the mastery, and as you say they naturally disappear. in my original post i should have been more clear that i don't NOT use counting and nor do i discourage counting until i can see that it is no longer necessary.

They then tell me that they can play it without counting - I let them do that and usually what they do is allright but not great. So then I have them play at a third of the tempo and they just fall apart. THEN I have them play at that tempo and count and boom: It works.
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lol, changing the tempo is always a good yardstick. (my latest group of students - a whole family - can play simple beats now but always at the same middle tempo. ask them to slow down and it all goes to pieces)

This sounds like something i would do too. the assessment of the teacher is one of the things that make getting a teacher so important. if you don't have one you have to be brutally honest with your own drumming assessment.

i also know that some of my pupils have a (probably) natural affinity for finding the 'one' and keeping the pulse. others need loads of counting work. each pupil and in some cases each fill demand a different teaching approach.

j
 
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I found learning to count the largest division or the pulse (ie. quarter notes in 4/4) of the music is in an incredible help, not only for helping to solidify your internal pulse, but also for helping to make sure your subdivisions are right on. I think it's good to count the small subdivisions while practicing or learning something new but then once thats done, counting the pulse will really help solidify your playing and when it becomes natural it's like a metronome going in your head. Saying that though, I don't do this all the time every time. I will not count when I'm playing with people and sometimes not when I'm practicing as well.
Also, when practicing and counting it's not a focus, as in I'm not focusing on the counting. It's just a soft voice or even just a noise like 'da do do da do do' (1 2 3 1 2 3). Although counting is something that has to be practiced because it's like having another limb to control. It's easier without counting but if you get really good at it, it will make your playing better imo.
 
As far as for Tempos, I always have this curve in mind - I cannot paint it, but I'll explain:

If you practise something at extremely slow speeds you'll have lot of time to focus on timing, perfect technique, sound, groove.... everything. You hear and see every little mistake you make. It is damn hard to do that but it works.

At very fast tempos you don't have any of this, but you do work on endurance and coordination (coordination in fast tempos feels different than in slow tempos because you usually use smaller motions). So practising at these tempos is also very benefitial.

If you practise at midtempos you don't cover any aspect of these two. You don't see or hear your mistakes as clearly and you don't work on the "small-movement-coordination" or endurance either. So this tempo is a tempo that is just not suited for effective practise.

That is why I leave that tempo out of my routine up until I am totally secure in both the very slow and very fast.

I encourage my students to spend about 70% of the time in the extremely slow tempo range, 25% in the extremly fast tempos and the rest in mid tempos.

As far as counting goes my advice is to count in 16th notes in slow tempos (or triplets if you are playing swung) and to count in quarter notes when playing fast. That also adds some different aspects to drumming.


And again: This is a teaching tool like forcing guys to count: There is a natural tendency to play mid tempos that feel good. So I force students to work in tempos that are unfamiliar to them. It just adds to their playing and confidence.
 
Note to newbs: ^^^ this is how you debate politely.

Thanks for the insight, folks.

SRJ
 
an excellent post sickrick. thanks for the advice. playing mid tempos is so natural because pupils are hearing these all the time. there are very few songs which are at the kind of slow tempos which to the practicing drummer is beneficial and playing a pattern fast is very hard without first organising the limbs at slow tempos. pupils gravitate to tempos they are aurally used to. nice one. that's why i take a rhythm watch to every lesson, but i never thought of it like this.


at the moment i'm working on stanton moore's new orleans stuff and while it is fun to play them at the tempos he's playing them with his band and although the feel really seems to kick in at that tempo it is hard to play the RRLRRLRL pattern effectively at slow beneficial tempos. but i had to do it if i was going to get all the footwork in place and get the accents and clave unisons dead on.
as a subnote i tried speeding up the pattern to use in a solo over the toms and recorded it. then when i slowed the tempo down using my module i discovered that i had completely straightened the pattern out and the swing was gone. it still sounds good at thos speeds as a chop but it bears the point out... speed can certainly kill the feel if it hasn't been well established at slow tempos.

j
 
NUTHA JASON said:
my original point was to move my pupils away from counting AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. so they can play a gig with a band and not count as you say you yourself do (as do i). that's what i meant with the imagery of scaffolding. i think my posts were pretty clear that i don't immediately squash counting but i also encourage feeling the fill through.
j
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He Nutha, a last thing abouth this, and the scaffolding imagery...

This somehow sound to me similar as “A groove played on a click will always sound mechanical”, which I believe is so untrue. By the same token, I don’t think you must stop counting to achieve a good feel. You can groove while counting, just as much as you can groove with a click.

I disagree with the Scaffolding imagery, because it makes counting sound as a bad habit that must go away. I’d be more inclined to go with “keep counting until you do it naturally, internally, and unconsciously.

Sorry if I fall in the semantics area here. My English limitations are often quite frustrating when I write something here. You know what? I’m quite sure you always count. You’ve just achieved that comfort level where it is done without you noticing.
 
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