Popularity, quality and vibe

Pollyanna

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
Funny thing how it works. Thinking of the the thread where Joey Jordinson was voted No1 drummer. Rolling Stones's top 20 is this:

1. Neil Peart (Rush)
2. John Bonham (Led Zeppelin)
3. Ginger Baker (Cream)
4. Keith Moon (Who)
5. Terry Bozzio (Zappa, Jeff Beck)
6. Bill Bruford (Yes)
7. Danny Carey (Tool)
8. Mike Portnoy (Dream Theater)
9. Ian Paice (Deep Purple)
10. Carl Palmer (ELP)
11. Stewart Copeland (Police)
12. Dave Lombardo (Slayer)
13. Steve Gadd (Steely Dan)
14. Vinnie Colaiuta (Sting, Frank Zappa)
15. Carter Beauford (Dave Matthews Band)
16. Tim Alexander (Primus)
17. Simon Phillips (Toto, Jeff Beck)
18. Rod Morgenstein (Dixie Dregs, Winger)
19. Matt Cameron (Soundgarden)
20. Dennis Chambers (Santana)

It's pretty messed up in terms of ability. I love Ginger, Bonzo and Moonie - the latter two are a lot of people's "favourite drummer" but they sure don't bring anywhere near as much to the drumming table as a bunch of drummers in the lower spots.

Obviously being in a popular/iconic band helps but that's not the whole story - Bonzo and Moonie were always feature players in their bands ... they weren't there for the ride.

Any thoughts on what it is about some drummers who have such strong appeal (okay Moonie was a wild man) while more accomplished players, have less broad appeal? Why do you think some drummers have more of a vibe in their playing than others?
 
These lists are never actually about the drummers, but about the surrounding factors, and usually the influence that the drummers had on future generations. Because if they were just about the drummers ability, then some of these drummers definitely wouldn't (and shouldn't) make it on this list. And that's a shame.

I do agree with you though. they were the feature players. "great" rock bands usually contain a great lead guitarist, so when a drummer dominates in a band which is dubbed as somewhat superior it's much more notable.
Danny Carey is the (modern day) example of that, and is why I expect he is so high. He plays in a band where he more or less takes the lead role, mainly because of the style of music they play. He totally dominates his band, the whole band revolves around him, and so they should, he's a good drummer. He's definitely not the seventh greatest player of all time though.

With "best lists", it's pretty easy to correlate the drummers to the readership of the publications/poll, or even the editors of said magazine/website (steve/vinnie @13/14 - dave lombardo @12). Also, nostalgia is a strong taint, for rolling stone the 60s-80s were the glory days of rock n roll, before auto tune & rap music filled the airwaves.
This magazine caters to Rawk! So it's pretty easy to have a guess of which drummers they would choose.

That said I have never (will never) read Rolling Stone, so their opinion has no influence on me.
 
I'm mostly surprised about Mike Portnoy's placing.

He could be considered the Bonham of the 21st century, in a way. He has awesome chops, he certainly has a good grasp of rhythmic sense, particularly odd meters, and he apparently puts on a good show.

However, does that mean that more people prefer him to Bonham? Certainly not.

That's where popularity comes in.
 
The point that people always miss when considering past drummers is that those guys were inventors. Just as Belson, Rich and co pioneered the drum kit, the solo and the swing style so Baker, Bonham and Moon invented rock and blues drumming.
Also of course others like Starr and Watts who again invented a style of playing that didn't exist until that point.
 
Asking any magazines readers to vote on anything is as useful as asking, "What's the Best....." on this forum. Nothing but opinion, and based on absolutely nothing but popularity and who they saw last. No scientific or educated foundation whatsoever.
 
Take the same pole in a "drum" oriented publication and I imagine the results would be very different.

But your talking what and how the general public hears and perceives vs what a "musician" may have as an opinion. Even then think of all the genre specific top drummers that would never get mentioned ... in areas like western swing, New Orleans second line or North Mississippi hill country blues.
 
toddy said:
With "best lists", it's pretty easy to correlate the drummers to the readership of the publications/poll,
Click to expand...

That's exactly what it amounts to. The answer to a single question varies greatly depending on who you ask, and their perspective and experience with the topic. The person also has to qualify what 'best' means in answering the question: Who's the best drummer? isn't a specific enough question itself. One person may have a rock perspective, one a groove perspective, one a strictly technical perspective, and another may think in terms of 'celebrity' drummers like Travis Barker, Ringo, Buddy Rich, etc.

The problem is, with a generic question like that, there is no single right answer. Even asking Who's the best rock drummer? will yield a variety of answers based on whether the person asked prefers metal, classic rock, prog, alternative, etc.

Unless the question is very specific, polls just don't work.

Bermuda
 
As everyone else has pointed out, it's the opinions of a certain demographic that has little to do with actual drumming as much as it does the surrounding circumstances.

But at the same time, why not Moon? Technically, not much there. But the The Who are only surpassed by the Beatles and Stones in terms of popularity and cultural impact. He is a huge influence on millions of drummers, and in many cases, an influence of what not to do. Without Moon, there is no Peart. Without Peart, this is no Portnoy.

Bozzio is on the opposite end, with technique and technical ability to last for days, but the average non-muso record buyer is only going to know him for "Walking in LA" and a few other straight ahead Missing Person's hits.

In end, the list doesn't even mention Krupa, Rich or Ringo, all of whom are responsible for more people taking up the the drums than anyone on that list.
 
If you have ever seen a commercial where they state, "Nine out of Ten Doctors recommend product ABC." It's all in the wording. They didn't ask 100 doctors which brand of ABC would they recommend and 90 of them said the same brand. The question would be "would you recommend ABC for preventing or treating Aches" and 90 of them would say sure. Very different question and reply. So only believe 50 % of what you read. And with something broad as this everyone has their own opinion.
 
DrumEatDrum said:
As everyone else has pointed out, it's the opinions of a certain demographic that has little to do with actual drumming as much as it does the surrounding circumstances.

But at the same time, why not Moon? Technically, not much there. But the The Who are only surpassed by the Beatles and Stones in terms of popularity and cultural impact. He is a huge influence on millions of drummers, and in many cases, an influence of what not to do. Without Moon, there is no Peart. Without Peart, this is no Portnoy.

Bozzio is on the opposite end, with technique and technical ability to last for days, but the average non-muso record buyer is only going to know him for "Walking in LA" and a few other straight ahead Missing Person's hits.

In end, the list doesn't even mention Krupa, Rich or Ringo, all of whom are responsible for more people taking up the the drums than anyone on that list.
Click to expand...

Ringo had little influence on the songwriting of the Beatles - their former producers says he was treated as afterthought. Many people who pay attention to his playing - which is very far down in the mix - find his playing bland, simple, uninspired and minimalist. That such a person is so hugely influential on drummers says more about drummers than anyone else. I would sooner see Phil Rudd on the list, as he has a great pocket.
 
Pollyanna said:
1. Neil Peart (Rush)
2. John Bonham (Led Zeppelin)
3. Ginger Baker (Cream)
4. Keith Moon (Who)
5. Terry Bozzio (Zappa, Jeff Beck)
6. Bill Bruford (Yes)
7. Danny Carey (Tool)
8. Mike Portnoy (Dream Theater)
9. Ian Paice (Deep Purple)
10. Carl Palmer (ELP)
11. Stewart Copeland (Police)
12. Dave Lombardo (Slayer)
13. Steve Gadd (Steely Dan)
14. Vinnie Colaiuta (Sting, Frank Zappa)
15. Carter Beauford (Dave Matthews Band)
16. Tim Alexander (Primus)
17. Simon Phillips (Toto, Jeff Beck)
18. Rod Morgenstein (Dixie Dregs, Winger)
19. Matt Cameron (Soundgarden)
20. Dennis Chambers (Santana)
Click to expand...

This list includes primarily drummers who played for Rolling Stone mags more popular groups. It's a good list too, as every drummer on the list all brought their own vibe, qualities and are all popular in the drumming circles.

Obviously it overlooked the amazing jazz, latin, funk, and fusion players whom have had differing effects on the drumming community, primarily in the way of technique, musical interpretation, touch and taste.

There also had to be a limit to the number they featured, as an all-inclusive list of influential drummers would occupy several magazines worth of pages, even longer if descriptions are added.

These magazines mostly regurgitate the same old song and dance, and are primarily read lightly and topically without much deep thought into the psyche of each musician. Specialty magazines, like MD or Drumhead or Drum, dig a little deeper and will often have a more 'confident' list of influential drummers to drummers.

Making a list, checking it twice, gonna find out who is naughty or nice.... :)
 
Deathmetalconga said:
Ringo had little influence on the songwriting of the Beatles - their former producers says he was treated as afterthought. Many people who pay attention to his playing - which is very far down in the mix - find his playing bland, simple, uninspired and minimalist. That such a person is so hugely influential on drummers says more about drummers than anyone else. I would sooner see Phil Rudd on the list, as he has a great pocket.
Click to expand...

Are you saying Ringo didn't have a good pocket?? That's what he was known for for god's sake. Jeese
 
GRUNTERSDAD said:
Are you saying Ringo didn't have a good pocket?? That's what he was known for for god's sake. Jeese
Click to expand...

He had pocket if his playing is what helped you determine what pocket is. Not everyone hung on Ringo's playing with baited breath...
 
From George Martin interview. Their Producer.


Ringo wasn't a natural choice for Martin though. Martin had already booked a professional drummer by the name of Andy White for the Beatles first recording in September, and he wasn’t necessarily inspired by Ringo’s initial performance, which was unique but unsteady. Andy ended up on the drums and Ringo was stuck playing the tambourine on the ‘Love Me Do’ single. Though Martin eventually relented, and Ringo did end up on the album version of 'Love Me Do', he was still pretty hurt, especially since he was already having a hard time with the ardent Pete Best fans. But it didn’t take long for the Beatles' fans to realize that Ringo was the better drummer, and Martin has since apologized to Ringo for his error in judgment.

And that would be BATED breath....They weren't fishing.
 
...

Roughly, the bottom half of the list ( Gadd downwards ) seems to have players who are mostly known for sessions or with a varied resume of multiple bands etc, That might have something to do with it .
To my mind popularity has an inverse relationship with quality at most times. I will exclude the birth of classic rock as a period from this observation though.

...
 
It's a pity Bill Ward (Black Sabbath) was not mention on the list.
Drummers like Bonham, Paice, Moon besides their personal skills, technique, feel and band cohesion, marriage. They had/have Charisma on and off the stage.
 
The Beatles influenced scores of aspiring musicians, and it was Beatles songs that these newly indoctrinated musos learned first...because it was simple music to learn and play.

The Beatles weren't known for their stellar musicianship, except that which was tied to genius songwriting and lyrical content.

In this respect, I have looked to Ringo for insight on how to approach simplicity, but I never considered him a figure to emulate or idolize. I'd even say he was the smallest contributor to The Beatles' success, but enough to say that he was.
 
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