Popularity, quality and vibe
- Thread starter Pollyanna
- Start date
Pollyanna
Platinum Member
Thanks Matt (R). I enjoyed your post. I guess when I speak of the top technique I'm talking about guys like Vinnie and Virgil, but point taken.
"It's the phrasing, the sound, and...in the case of a drummer...the actual drum part itself" covers a lot of ground. Phrasing ... the choices ... what gets a drummer making great choices? Taste, ears, everything they've heard before, the choices of other band members, the overall mood and shape of a piece, spoken and unspoken hints from other band members ...
I remember when I first bought Presence and heard that big fill in Achilles Last Stand. I was surprised because I'd always associated fills like that with Billy C. My first thought was, "Wow, Bonzo's been practising!"
Matt (S) ... for me the appeal of Stewart Copeland is in his choices - his kit and drum parts, his energy and endurance. Yup, it has to be a rock list with a few high profile jazz players here and there. Otherwise you couldn't miss out on Elvin, Tony, Jack etc.
"It's the phrasing, the sound, and...in the case of a drummer...the actual drum part itself" covers a lot of ground. Phrasing ... the choices ... what gets a drummer making great choices? Taste, ears, everything they've heard before, the choices of other band members, the overall mood and shape of a piece, spoken and unspoken hints from other band members ...
I remember when I first bought Presence and heard that big fill in Achilles Last Stand. I was surprised because I'd always associated fills like that with Billy C. My first thought was, "Wow, Bonzo's been practising!"
Matt (S) ... for me the appeal of Stewart Copeland is in his choices - his kit and drum parts, his energy and endurance. Yup, it has to be a rock list with a few high profile jazz players here and there. Otherwise you couldn't miss out on Elvin, Tony, Jack etc.
No surprise that RS would see things from a rock/pop lens.
All the 'non rock only' players are listed with their rock connections. The fact that Porcaro cut his teeth with Berlin, Larry Carlton, George Benson, or that Gadd played with Chick Corea, Lonnie Smith, Jaco Pastorius long before Paul SImon or Aja is of little consequence.
Also for Vinnie to be labelled as Zappa's & Sting's drummer is leaving a whole heck of a lot unsaid.
...
Larry
"Uncle Larry"
This is all my opinion: I am not minimalizing anyone here.
The thing about the greats that baffle everyone, meaning how did they come up with those iconic drum parts and so on...I contend, as great as all the greats are/were...that their parts were not that hard for them to come up with because they intuitively felt them that way. Lets take Bonzo for example. When you have a wonderfully written song to jump off from...John Paul Jones thundering away on the bass and Jimmy Page's guitar wizardry...that's some very fertile ground to hear drum parts within. The desire to want to pull one's own weight within that realm of talent must have contributed too....
The execution I can certainly give them all kinds of credit for, no doubt, but I think the ideas came very easily and naturally, considering their context. They just felt it that way, and there's nothing mysterious about it. I don't think Bonham sat up at night crafting the fills, agonizing over every note, I think he just heard a fill, and OK then the execution needed to be practiced I'm sure, but the actual ideas?
I contend that it came very easily and intuitively. He just felt it in a really great way, which is a goal I am certainly working towards.
Again, this was all opinion. Maybe Bonzo did craft things very meticulously. I doubt it though, my impression is that he was a rough and ready type guy who just went for it with gusto.
The thing about the greats that baffle everyone, meaning how did they come up with those iconic drum parts and so on...I contend, as great as all the greats are/were...that their parts were not that hard for them to come up with because they intuitively felt them that way. Lets take Bonzo for example. When you have a wonderfully written song to jump off from...John Paul Jones thundering away on the bass and Jimmy Page's guitar wizardry...that's some very fertile ground to hear drum parts within. The desire to want to pull one's own weight within that realm of talent must have contributed too....
The execution I can certainly give them all kinds of credit for, no doubt, but I think the ideas came very easily and naturally, considering their context. They just felt it that way, and there's nothing mysterious about it. I don't think Bonham sat up at night crafting the fills, agonizing over every note, I think he just heard a fill, and OK then the execution needed to be practiced I'm sure, but the actual ideas?
I contend that it came very easily and intuitively. He just felt it in a really great way, which is a goal I am certainly working towards.
Again, this was all opinion. Maybe Bonzo did craft things very meticulously. I doubt it though, my impression is that he was a rough and ready type guy who just went for it with gusto.
DrumEatDrum
Platinum Member
Hey Larry.
I don't think anyone implied that Bonham stayed up late at night going over rhythmic permutation looking for just the right fill or anything of that sort. I'm sure you're right, it was a fairly organic process.
Still, he was there as the songs were developed, and he came up with the parts that everyone else wants to copy because they were perfect for their time.
Pkaneps
Senior Member
I guess I'll say this again. John Bonham is my favorite drummer. I could listen to him play for much longer than anyone else. I like what he plays and it doesn't go much further than that.
That doesn't mean he's the most technically skilled, because if I had to listen to drum solos in every song I'd kill myself.
That doesn't mean he's the most technically skilled, because if I had to listen to drum solos in every song I'd kill myself.
Fishbones
Silver Member
very true... but i've never heard anyone with bonzo's combination of power, finesse, intricacy and plain old badass rock and roll.
Pollyanna
Platinum Member
Larry, I'd guess that Bonzo (and others) are being intuitive too. Thing is, some drummers seem to have better instincts than others in the same way as some people's conversation flows better than others. The interesting question is how can we hone our instincts ... or maybe, how do we peel away the stuff that gets in the way of our instincts? What are the things that mess with our insincts? Ego? Being formulaic? Fear?
Nice summary of Bonzo's appeal, Fishbones. I still really enjoy him but the power and oomph was even more appealing when I was young. If you're into drumming thrill rides that are only somewhat hammed up then Bonzo will take you there.
Matt, yup, a bit of mischief going on I wasn't part of the weird Copeland thread so I guess that's what I would have liked to have said. have to watch out for that Abe ... arguably his finest forum achievement was the Metheny/KG thread
Nice summary of Bonzo's appeal, Fishbones. I still really enjoy him but the power and oomph was even more appealing when I was young. If you're into drumming thrill rides that are only somewhat hammed up then Bonzo will take you there.
Matt, yup, a bit of mischief going on
I wasn't part of the weird Copeland thread so I guess that's what I would have liked to have said. have to watch out for that Abe ... arguably his finest forum achievement was the Metheny/KG thread
DrumEatDrum
Platinum Member
Good question.
But I suppose that's on par with why do some people write better songs than others, and why do some artists have brilliant early careers but run out of ideas, while other artists get better with time.
LinearDrummer
Silver Member
Most of those players have been given the freedom to do their schtik....that makes a big difference.
I've heard countless songs with killer riffs where the drummer is straight 2 n 4 thinking to myself how cool would it have been if he played such n such beat
I can remember seeing the Who videos on MTV inparticular a song called "Eminence Front" where the drummer (Kenny ?) does absolutely nuthin creative thinkin to myself if Moonie had played this he woulda killed it....
Did that drummer have some killer licks he wanted to do but Pete and Roger told him to tone it down...who knows...if he was given the green light maybe he'd be on that list.
I've heard countless songs with killer riffs where the drummer is straight 2 n 4 thinking to myself how cool would it have been if he played such n such beat
I can remember seeing the Who videos on MTV inparticular a song called "Eminence Front" where the drummer (Kenny ?) does absolutely nuthin creative thinkin to myself if Moonie had played this he woulda killed it....
Did that drummer have some killer licks he wanted to do but Pete and Roger told him to tone it down...who knows...if he was given the green light maybe he'd be on that list.
Pollyanna
Platinum Member
If a drummer finds interesting drum parts that complement the song as much, or more, than restrained playing then most times other band members will say "Go for it!". There's a number of possible drum parts that can be played to any one arrangement. The players with the best instincts are the ones who come up this cool, yet complementary lines.
I suspect that honing those sorts of instincts through listening and learning is the holy grail of many drummers. For, my focus is working out how to get out of my own way so I can tune in more consistently and better. I suspect it's a lifetime project ...
alparrott
Diamond Member
Kenney Jones picked up the sticks for the Who following Moonie's death, and you're right, he was stylistically a 180-degree turn from Moonie. He was very much a meat-and-potatoes straight-ahead session type guy. But then again, Simon Phillips and Zak Starkey don't play the parts the way Moonie did, either.
Picking Jones might have been a conscious decision right after Keith's death, to distance themselves from that sound, whether because they mutually decided that it was time to take their sound in a tighter direction (unspoken: "Now that HE'S gone...") or unconsciously didn't want someone to try and sound like their absent friend. Later, when introducing Simon Phillips at the Tommy shows in New York, Pete Townshend said, "We didn't even want to try to replace [Keith]." And as mentioned in the other thread about "why nobody plays like Keith anymore"... NOBODY plays like Keith anymore, whether by design, or the vagaries of the listening public and the music industry at large.
DrumEatDrum
Platinum Member
Good points on Kenny. I don't think it was an "or" as much as both factors came into play. Before Keith's death, Pete had planned on very little to no touring for the "Who Are You" album, but after Keith died, Pete wanted (and did) launch a major tour.
The band picked Kenny because they were all old friends, and Kenny had worked on the soundtrack versions of a few Who songs in the 70's. So Pete, Rodger and John were all very familiar with his style.
Kenny gets a bad rap, from the fans and even from Rodger, but the way I see it, he was doing what was asked of him. He stepped into a no-win situation and played the way he always did.
Anyway, I can't imagine what Keith could have done with "Eminence Front." Yeah, Kenny's part is basically a human drum loop, but so is the guitar part and the synth part for that matter. I've always more wondered why THAT was the single for the album.
alparrott
Diamond Member
Or what about "You Better You Bet"? That was a huge single, but to me it's always sounded a little.... safe. With Keith, it would have gone dangerous in between the verses (and towards the end)... I like to think so anyways.
I just think of all the great bands I'm going to see in the Hereafter, and I smile...
toddy
Platinum Member
probably one of the best "opinion" posts ever written on this forum!!! thanks.
toddy
Platinum Member
There are loads of them. I have a feeling young people usually don't bother mentioning them because there is rarely ever any need, or point. Newer "great" drummers will simply be compared to past drummers from history, which will probably lead into an argument of some sort, which will undoubtedly end with some sort of variant on "but without X you wouldn't have Y". Better to just listen/steal from those new(er) drummers which fly under the radar, and not inform anyone else about it.
There are more and more good drummers (bands!) nowadays. Not only that but kids (new drummers) have more spare time, much more music to listen to & it's much easier to learn (youtube, etc). I could list many drummers who I'm sure young people would see as idols. Not all of them are great, but idols nonetheless. That said there are some great young (<25) drummers, who are very inspiring.
Let's face it, opinions (which usually lead into arguments) of this sort are not only usually fruitless, but are also a great way to waste time, when really you should just be practicing (learning). Better to just get on with it and save your (important) opinions for when you write your autobiography or something.
p.s. notice my "question marks" around the term "great". I find terms like great etc, to be a little annoying. Subjectivity sucks.
Last edited:
DrumEatDrum
Platinum Member
Oddly enough, it was seeing the video for "You Better You Bet" on MTV as a kid that first got me into The Who. I always thought Kenny's part was interesting, going between the snare and tom for the back beat, then he flips it in the last verse, and adds the China in the bridge.
When I saw The Who about a year or two ago, Zak completely re-imagined the drum track, and made it very much more "Keith Moon" which was interesting, so I totally see your point.
0neyellowdrum
Senior Member
Well, there can't be loads of them because then they would not be 'drum gods'. 'Drum God' is generally reserved for those that are iconic. And if you revere and idolize them you talk about them often and evangelize them.
When I was alot younger we had guitar gods, bass gods, piano/keyboard gods, ect. We sought for any recordings that they had done and talked about them alot! And these players were always compared to past or older players.
No argument from me and I follow many but... are they iconic? Are they considered 'Drum Gods' in the same vein as we (and I don't mean just drummers) bestow on Bonham, Peart, Buddy, ect.?
Yet you use it in your signature! Are you trying to annoy yourself?
toddy
Platinum Member
1. - Well it depends what you (I) define as a drum god I suppose. I don't personally have any "drum gods", but I do have a host of people who inspire me. I listen to drummers from the 90s onwards that inspire me, and I'm sure I could have a detailed conversation about them. I have a feeling that my view is this way because I wasn't around at the time when they were on a pedastool. Actually come to think of it I do quite like John Bonham. However that said I'm sure that peart had influence on many of the players who influence(d) me!
I think this is an instance where I used a term (drum god), that I personally would never use myself, without explaining my viewpoint of said term first. I'm a damn fool.
2. - They may be icons, idols, for some people. They won't be for everyone though. It's my opinion that there will never be another jimi hendrix, or john bonham. There are too many musicians nowadays fighting for airtime, for anyone to take up so much space on their own. That doesn't mean there are no great players now though, & I'm not sure why I should have any interest in what the general public thinks of a drummer. Just as I'm equally unsure why I would have any interest in what Rolling Stone magazine have to say.
I don't live in the US, but in the UK rock in general isn't that popular (in terms of charts, "we" like indie rock). There's a lot of music on youtube, there are a host of great young drummers. But none of them, will ever be drilled into the brain of popular culture, as Led Zeppelin would have 'back in the day. None of them sell enough records to command regular play on Radio One. Many of them don't reside within mainstream friendly genres. I literally have nothing else to say on the matter, so I'll leave this thread for intellectual discussion.
3 - I'm not sure if you've read many of my posts, but I'm not too keen on the whole "popular opinion" thing, I personally think it's a horrible gauge. That I even posted in this thread in the first place has turned out to be an aberration, and I apologize to myself. Always annoying. Sorry dude! Great film though.