A peek Inside a Copeland masterclass

[aydee]

I guess I take the word "deny" to mean he said it never happened, and I don't see that in the quote.

By deny, I meant slighting / or mis-representing the value of stuff that your playing obviously draws from.

I'd have a hard time telling young drummers not to listen to jazz, if they said they wanted to play/sound like Copeland.

Sure, Reggae, rock, and African/Arabic drummers are a part of what he does, but he himself admits to being influenced by Buddy Rich.

I think it's pretty clear he's just trying to p*** certain people off and not really taking his comments as seriously as some people have.

I realize he made a glib, just for effect, stir the hornets nest, punk remark, but what followed as a reaction in the Jazz community was equally justified.

 

[ryctor]

Dude, which Jazz drummers do you know whose measure of worth is how many notes you can play? That's as far from ANYONE's jazz concept as you can get, and I'm no jazz drummer. And also, since when are Dave and Vinnie jazz drummers? Influenced to be sure, but they're fusion if anything (if you have to confine them to a style). But they're definitely not jazz players. You see, from what i know you pretty much have to be extremely invested in playing jazz music to be a "jazz drummer". I know people may play "jazz" but who are far from being "jazz drummers" within the idioms of the culture, because they arent dedicated to the art to a degree one has to be in order to reach the depths of expression demanded by the style. And really, that's what Jazz is all about, depth of expression and communication in an improvisatinoal setting. The fact that many Jazz players are also great technicians is incidental. Sorry if this thing is full of spelling/grammar errors, gotta go, no time to proof read.

Man, you are very far from it.
I clearly said, that those are wantnabes, Jazzholes, not real Jazz musicians, and I know a lot of them, don't you?

Steve Smith, Weckl, Gadd, even Tico Torres. They are and will be Jazz before everything else.
So, Mr. Steve Smith, was a Jazz player when playing with Ponty, then he stop to be one, because he played years for Journey, and then, all of a sudden, he is a Jazz player again?

Being a Jazz player is not how many ours you actually play the genre, its the foundation on which your playing is based, because I will assure you, It does not matter with who you play, in the practice room, is Jazz.

Mr. Tico Torres, a Joe Morello student (talk about not being a Jazz player), practices from 6 to 8 hours a day with Bon Jovi, before go out on tour.
Two weeks before the tour, he encloses himself, with a small Gretsch kit, a couple of fellow Jazz musicians, and play straight ahead Jazz, as he said himself, "just to be greased up, if I need to take out MY stuff, in the show". His stuff, meaning JAZZ!
Its not about a Jazz player, its about a Jazz musician, and Jazz musicians are able to play anything!
Have you ever heard Dave in the Acoustic Band trio, with Korea and John Patitucci? Is that is not Jazz, then someone tell me what is?
The fact that he is a prodigy, and is able to play fusion very well, and rock, and songo, and samba, and anything, can not label him as anything else, because he is one of the most influential Jazz drummers of out time, Gadd is the same.

Talking about Gadd, when he plays and tours with Clapton, is he less of a Jazz player, because of that? Nonsense!

So, taking Mr. Smith as an example, because you are actively playing something else, can and will not take away your foundations as a musician. A jazz player will be always a Jazz player, or in other words, a Jazz musician, if the word player bothers you.
Even when playing with Journey, he will express it himself, "I am a Jazz player". And he truly is, one of the Greats!
To say he was not, because he was playing rock with Journey, it totally nonsense!

Those are Jazz players that are technically and mechanically good enough to play fusion JAZZ, very well, but put on Weckl's hands a set of brushes, you are up for a treat! As musical, as dynamic, as deep, and tasty, as one can be! That is JAzz, my friend.

Maybe you were referring to Straight Ahead, swing jazz, and actually, there are a few other concepts that fall under the description, New Orleans, Fusion Jazz.
Is Stan Getz not a Jazz player because he loves the slow Boza? Dude!

Jojo is a Drummer that with a 2 pc, snare and kick, hat and crash ride, can play anything, I mean anything, and good. He is, a Jazz player indeed, one of the best!
You do not have to actually play Jazz all the time, a professional plays whatever is on the chart, to get the job done. Not many other players can do that, Jazz players can.

The purist approach to Jazz, I can understand, cataloging as Jazz, only the true Staigh Ahead Acoustic Jazz as the true expresion of Jazz, I agree in some degree.
But there are different genres inside a music genre.

For example, they say all the Blues are already written, its got to do with a time frame, a culture, actual historical events, place of birth even. Those are the Delta Blues. Hooker, Waters, Hopkins. But to say Stevie Ray was not a Blues player, because of that, is again totally wrong and it fall in the absurd. Same with Clapton. Both being Caucasians, it do not fall under the Blues definition, but Mr. John Lee Hooker, said himself " when you hear the Blues and close your eyes, you do not see any colors" True indeed. Same applies to Jazz.
Boxes are for storing stuff, not to put music genres inside, so to try to "box" such a complex genre as Jazz, or its players, is just impossible.

The Ryctor!

 

[Garvin]

I think there's a difference between skilled technical drummers who "can play jazz" and jazz drummers. I think that if you can comfortably function in the jazz idiom, you are probably something of a technician and can tackle other things, but I still wouldn't put Weckl, Gadd, or Steve Smith in the category of "jazz drummers". They are fine drummers, and workhorses, but I don't think of them when I think of the term jazz drummer.

Its like several threads are all smearing together here. I'm thoroughly convinced that if we continue to shout and clarify our opinions, and of course bicker over semantics, we might finally figure this out and then we can move on to solving the worlds other problems like curing cancer, and turning the economy around.

Go DW!

 

[VedranS]

To Ryctor (sorry didn't want to quote your whole post, that's just a waste of internet trees):

You make some great points and I can definitely see where you're coming from. I generaly try not to categorize too much or have definitions that are so strict as to be too limiting, but it's something that kind of tends to slip away if I don't receive the occasional reminder, so thanks.

I suppose a lot of this "boxing" stuff comes from different places. How does the player define themselves? How do their peers define them? How does their audience define them? On the one hand, if someone is steeped in jazz but doesn't identify as a "Jazz drummer", then nobody can make them be one. On the other, if someone calls themselves a "jazz drummer", but the entire community rejects the label being applied to them for whatever reason, then are they still one? I don't know, just rhetorical questions, this whole labeling business is wacky, but we do it naturally, you know? I have my own perspectives, and those seem to differ a bit from yours, and you'll have that. I've still got this inkling in my head that there's something to jazz that is ephemeral and philosophical and can't necessarily be touched by those just dropping in to say hello every once in a while...

Right, so back to earth, sorry if I helped to de-rail the thread, I'll try to stay out of it from here on...

 

[Brundlefly]

I realize he made a glib, just for effect, stir the hornets nest, punk remark, but what followed as a reaction in the Jazz community was equally justified.

I'm not sure "justified" is quite the word. "Pavlovian" is what I would have picked. That people keep falling for it year after year shows that, if nothing else, the man knows just what buttons to press.

 

[RobertM]

Further proof that people take his joking comments way too seriously: Stewart has stated, on his documentary DVD to the Orchestralli concert (and elsewhere), that his signature hi-hat playing was influenced by Buddy Rich, and that some Buddy Rich music is a favorite "family piece" that he and his kids listen to for fun. I should have mentioned that before--it just didn't occur to me at the time.

I don't think he's ever really denied his source or roots--he's always freely admitted that his first teacher was an Armenian jazz drummer in Lebanon when he was a kid, which is why he still plays traditional grip to this day.

Stewart just has a quirky, funny personality.

When I read his comments about jazz musicians being "crap," I just laugh--because I know about his satiric sensibility. Stan is still right to note that such comments may adversely affect a younger, impressionable audience, but that is a risk that a lot of art takes on a wider level. It often takes time, experience, reading, and a lot of learning to understand how people employ irony, satire, etc. This kind of debate goes all the way back to authors' fears of audience reaction to/misinterpretation of their art--from Chaucer's use of scabrous material in the Canterbury Tales, to Jonathan Swift's use of satire in Gulliver and other works, to James Joyce's Ulysses, to Nabokov's Lolita, etc., etc. There are a lot of larger issues at stake in this thread.

And for those of you who have made it clear that you do not like Stewart, I'll offer you another quotation--one of my favorites--of Stewart on Sting: "Sting can be very abusive and ride roughshod over people's sensibilities. I'm immune because I have no sensibilities." Classic Stewart--ha!

 

[monstermook]

Stan makes a good point about how comments influence up-and-coming drummers, but Matt's point about context also is quite important. When you are dealing with Stewart Copeland, you have to take things with a grain of salt.

You and I know that, but these young guys coming up with no idea of context have no clue. I have seen guys who are beginners and have very little technique or ability latch onto his words and take comfort in them. The may not have had ability at the time but they had potential and Stewart's words and ideas handicapped them. I'm sorry to point out reality, but learning to solo is part of mastering the instrument.

He, like other drummers or musicians or artists, are too complex, and therefore cannot be dismissed by judgmental remarks blasting ability, etc.

I'm sorry, but the he was only joking defense does not hold water. Neither does the he is too complex for you to understand defense.

And by the way, Copeland was a drummer of average drumming ability. He is a much better composer than he is a drummer.

 

[Pavlos]

Now this thread is just going in circles.

 

[RobertM]

And by the way, Copeland was a drummer of average drumming ability. He is a much better composer than he is a drummer.

Okay, everyone: God has spoken. Apparently, Copeland is now officially average and officially better at composing than drumming.

I'm with Pavlos regarding the state of this thread.

 

[Garvin]

Here here! I move that this thread be officially concluded!

 

[RobertM]

Here here! I move that this thread be officially concluded!

Yes, I agree! As Ward Abbott instructs Danny Zorn at the end of The Bourne Identity, "Shut it down."

 

[Garvin]

Ha! I was thinking of that same line spoken by Alec Baldwin on 30 Rock.... But indeed "Shut it down" says it all.

Can we start "A peek inside a Barker masterclass" thread next?

 

[Pavlos]

It has been fun though. Almost as good as the big cymbal meltdown last week. lmao

 

[mattsmith]

You and I know that, but these young guys coming up with no idea of context have no clue. I have seen guys who are beginners and have very little technique or ability latch onto his words and take comfort in them. They may not have had ability at the time but they had potential and Stewart's words and ideas handicapped them. I'm sorry to point out reality, but learning to solo is part of mastering the instrument.

Now I agree with this. And yeah you do see this all the time. You're new here. But take an hour or so one day, and go back and read some of the debates this forum has encountered regarding this very thing. I've said here a million times that you have this whole subculture who believe that feel derives from magic groove elves who live in the enchanted musicality forrest. And 90% of the time, you look up the playing of a forum poster who talks this way, and it's six miles of bad road.

But still they persist with their talk and their opinions, and their slams, because they think comments like this v v v .......

It's sort of like jazz is the refuge of the talent-less. If you really want to be a musician and you are prepared to really work hard at it, but you don't have the gift and you don't have any soul and you don't have any talent, jazz is what you should do; because all you need to do is just spend hours training your fingers to wiggle very quickly and you'll be a hero in the jazz world.

.......validates their unwillingness to do the work, while they continue all this parallel universe talking.

Besides, let's be honest, if this famous drummer had spent a little more time wiggling his fingers when he was younger, he wouldn't have to call all that involuntary rushing he does a style.

I was going to be chill here. But those stupid jazz remarks always get me because they're just so ridiculous. A lot of times it also seems like Copeland involves himself in preemptive strikes to divert weakness away from himself. For instance, he first made those anti-jazz remarks when he was upset about Andy Summers' preoccupation with jazz getting in the way with the reunion getting tight. Then the moment they're back together and performing, there is obvious uneven stuff going on. So here comes Copeland to slam his own band's less than stellar initial performances, when 10 seconds of listening tells you that somebody needs to spend some time on the click.

I guess that's how some people roll.

Fyi, there is always at least a third of a thread left after the initial shut it down. Actually, I think this just veered into a pretty decent talk. Besides, it's difficult to claim that a famous drummer is being slammed when the very person in question personally tossed out so much fresh red meat.

 

[ryctor]

From Garvin:
"I think there's a difference between skilled technical drummers who "can play jazz" and jazz drummers. I think that if you can comfortably function in the jazz idiom, you are probably something of a technician and can tackle other things, but I still wouldn't put Weckl, Gadd, or Steve Smith in the category of "jazz drummers". They are fine drummers, and workhorses, but I don't think of them when I think of the term jazz drummer.

Its like several threads are all smearing together here. I'm thoroughly convinced that if we continue to shout and clarify our opinions, and of course bicker over semantics, we might finally figure this out and then we can move on to solving the worlds other problems like curing cancer, and turning the economy around."

I hear you, man. Nice points!

Thanks for that!

To Ryctor (sorry didn't want to quote your whole post, that's just a waste of internet trees):

You make some great points and I can definitely see where you're coming from. I generaly try not to categorize too much or have definitions that are so strict as to be too limiting, but it's something that kind of tends to slip away if I don't receive the occasional reminder, so thanks.

I suppose a lot of this "boxing" stuff comes from different places. How does the player define themselves? How do their peers define them? How does their audience define them? On the one hand, if someone is steeped in jazz but doesn't identify as a "Jazz drummer", then nobody can make them be one. On the other, if someone calls themselves a "jazz drummer", but the entire community rejects the label being applied to them for whatever reason, then are they still one? I don't know, just rhetorical questions, this whole labeling business is wacky, but we do it naturally, you know? I have my own perspectives, and those seem to differ a bit from yours, and you'll have that. I've still got this inkling in my head that there's something to jazz that is ephemeral and philosophical and can't necessarily be touched by those just dropping in to say hello every once in a while...

Right, so back to earth, sorry if I helped to de-rail the thread, I'll try to stay out of it from here on...

Very interesting points, and very well taken. I actually can relate to a lot of what you are presenting.

Thanks!

Both very good posts!

Thanks Again!
Ryctor

 

[ryctor]

You and I know that, but these young guys coming up with no idea of context have no clue. I have seen guys who are beginners and have very little technique or ability latch onto his words and take comfort in them. The may not have had ability at the time but they had potential and Stewart's words and ideas handicapped them. I'm sorry to point out reality, but learning to solo is part of mastering the instrument.




I'm sorry, but the he was only joking defense does not hold water. Neither does the he is too complex for you to understand defense.

And by the way, Copeland was a drummer of average drumming ability. He is a much better composer than he is a drummer.

The first part of this is valid, and definitively a point that needed to be addressed.
But the second part is trash. I wonder, can you play Copeland? can you sound like him?
Accents, grooves, off beat patterns, feel and sound, that I bet, even you, who actually sound like if you have the ruler to measure talent, have a lot to learn about.

Define ability, and this is what I have been trying to get across, if you mean chops, speed, mechanical skill, rudimentary expertise, you might have a point, and that is depending to which drummer you are comparing him to.

But your case falls down badly, when we are talking about feel, uniqueness, taste, groove and sound.
This guy is a Legend, a prick and an arrogant bastard, maybe, but a Legend indeed, and for you to be talking about him as an average drummer, talks a lot about your drumming itself, even without me listening to it.

If you can not find taste and feel in his sound, way beyond the average mark, you do not have any of those in you, and that is understandable, but not right.

You are trying to prove the impossible, you are trying to prove that one of the most unique, tasty and influential drummers in our time is average, good luck with that!

The uniqueness, is what makes his Greatness, not his mechanical ability.
I have a hard time to define in some tracks from Korea, who is in the drums, is it El Negro, is it Vinnie, or is it Dave? Those are Great Players.
A lot better than Stewart in many ways, but:
I have no problem identifying Copeland's playing, do not matter with who he is playing. That is uniqueness, that is the sound of a Great.


I agree, its time for a nice shut down!

The Ryctor!

 

[monstermook]

Now I agree with this. And yeah you do see this all the time. You're new here. But take an hour or so one day, and go back and read some of the debates this forum has encountered regarding this very thing. I've said here a million times that you have this whole subculture who believe that feel derives from magic groove elves who live in the enchanted musicality forrest. And 90% of the time, you look up the playing of a forum poster who talks this way, and it's six miles of bad road.

At some point I will venture back and look at some of the other threads. Unfortunately I spend most of my time either playing or practicing or hanging out with loved ones. Unlike some of these guys, I moved out of mom's basement long ago. For now, I'll take your word for it that this subject has been discussed before. Shoot, I've had these discussions before with other drummers so I'm sure it has come up here, what with all these eggheads running around.

The problem is, these guys that think Copeland is a god on drums are so far from a god themselves that they just don't get it. Its like I've said before:

If you are at the bottom of the well, your sky is only as big as a pie plate.

To these Copeland worshipers, he is their entire sky. They don't seem to understand that there is a whole world out there beyond him and that in that great big world, he is an average drummer. Average isn't bad. I enjoy his playing and I find his take (and yes it is a take) on the drumming of the Wailers and other reggae bands of that era interesting. I would find him even more interesting if I hadn't grown up with reggae, latin music and jazz. There is so much incredible music out there that I am frankly unimpressed by Copeland's drumming ability. To these Copeland worshipers, he may have been their entree into drumming, but seriously folks, you need to get out more.

But still they persist with their talk and their opinions, and their slams, because they think comments like this v v v .......

It's sort of like jazz is the refuge of the talent-less. If you really want to be a musician and you are prepared to really work hard at it, but you don't have the gift and you don't have any soul and you don't have any talent, jazz is what you should do; because all you need to do is just spend hours training your fingers to wiggle very quickly and you'll be a hero in the jazz world.

.......validates their unwillingness to do the work, while they continue all this parallel universe talking.

A FREAKING MEN!

Besides, let's be honest, if this famous drummer had spent a little more time wiggling his fingers when he was younger, he wouldn't have to call all that involuntary rushing he does a style.

A-FREAKING-MEN. You simply have to practice to master the instrument. That being said, you can practice until the end of time and not master the instrument. His body of work does not suggest mastery of the instrument. Seriously cultists, climb up out of that well and look around. I bet I could go to your town and find 5 drummers who are better than Stewart Copeland and play with 10X the heart, soul and chops. Why are you sitting here reading this? Why are you sitting at home with some porn tabbed out in another window and Walking on the Moon playing in the background? Get out there and see some actual drummers play live.

 

[monstermook]

But the second part is trash. I wonder, can you play Copeland? can you sound like him?
Accents, grooves, off beat patterns, feel and sound, that I bet, even you, who actually sound like if you have the ruler to measure talent, have a lot to learn about.

I probably wouldn't use Copeland as a source to study reggae music. I would probably go to the original sources, guys you haven't even heard of because you are fixated on Copeland. I like Copeland's playing but I like the playing of his influences better. That being said I could probably sit down and play anything he has ever played note for note and you probably would not be able to tell the difference. What difference does it make anyway what I can play?

This guy is a Legend, a prick and an arrogant bastard, maybe, but a Legend indeed, and for you to be talking about him as an average drummer, talks a lot about your drumming itself, even without me listening to it.

Well you got some of it right. He is famous, I'll give you that. Its too bad he is of average ability.

If you can not find taste and feel in his sound, way beyond the average mark, you do not have any of those in you, and that is understandable, but not right.

Who says average is bad? I have stated before, I enjoy his playing, but there is a whole world of drummers out there better than he is. And besides, I can only listen to the police for so long before I get hungry for something with a little more meat on the bone. Why are you attacking me personally? I haven't attacked you. A criticism of Copeland is not a criticism of you, my friend. If you attach too much of your identity to a person outside yourself you are in for many big disappointments. There are probably at least 5 drummers in your town (many more if you live in a city) who would blow Copeland's doors off. Why don't you expand your horizons a little bit?

 

[ryctor]

I probably wouldn't use Copeland as a source to study reggae music. I would probably go to the original sources, guys you haven't even heard of because you are fixated on Copeland. I like Copeland's playing but I like the playing of his influences better. That being said I could probably sit down and play anything he has ever played note for note and you probably would not be able to tell the difference. What difference does it make anyway what I can play?



Well you got some of it right. He is famous, I'll give you that. Its too bad he is of average ability.

I will rest my case, because this display of arrogant attitude, and lack of knowledge just is not worth more of my input.
There is no mayor blind, than the one who do not want to see.

But to say that one can play Copeland's work note by note, and there will be no difference in sound, is just as ignorant as one can be. Because that is exactly what separates him from the rest, his sound. This has been established by a lot of prominent drummers and professionals, far more qualified than you, and you sound as disrespectful as he did when he talked about Jazz.
So, the listener will be like, "That is Stewart Copeland", and for his surprise, it will be you playing? OMG!
Average feel, touch, taste, sound that even you can imitate? I will not even going to answer to that!

Even your concept of ability, which obviously leave aside the principles of feel and touch, is not worthy of discussion, and to tell you the truth, you are assuming the same arrogant attitude he assumed about Jazz players, when you say you can play his thing and no one will tell the difference. As he said that anyone can play Jazz, you are saying anyone can play Copeland, and even sound like him, you both are very arrogant and both are wrong!

At least he had a point about some Jazz wantabes, that have no soul or feel, just chops. I guess that is why you are after him because he was talking about You!

Your statements are absurd and pointless.

You have become Copeland yourself. the difference is, you are not a Legend, so you really sound very arrogant, even more than him.

Because you are an average player, does not mean every Legend in the world of drumming has to be one.
Good luck with your incredible ability and feel!

 

[Disco Stu]

RE: the jazz comment.

I am a fan of Stewart Copeland's music, but I will say he has a bit of an oddball personality, so I wouldn't take anything he says too seriously.