A peek Inside a Copeland masterclass

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To give a 'master class' don't you have to be a master? That really isn't a title I would grant to Copeland. He is probably a much better composer than he is a drummer and I give him much respect for his composing. As a drummer, not so much.
 
monstermook said:
To give a 'master class' don't you have to be a master? That really isn't a title I would grant to Copeland. He is probably a much better composer than he is a drummer and I give him much respect for his composing. As a drummer, not so much.
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Hmmm hard call. Maybe not master. But he exploded onto the scene and received many awards and accolades for his drumming.

I guess I could not put him on the same level as Steve Smith or Elvin Jones.
 
trkdrmr said:
Just how does one organize a 1 on 1 master class with Stewart Copeland???? Or any other top name pro drummer???
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First sing 'Walking in the air' for 15 years http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDh_L9JU5dQ
Then use your connections to get a presenting job on a religious hymns programme
Then get a plumb presenting job on Radio 2
Et voila...the British taxpayer pays for you to have drum lessons with the best on earth and gets you your first gig - "Finally he flies to Germany to play drums for one of his musical heroes at a major stadium gig. But he's had precious little time to practise, and when he gets there he discovers he's been learning the wrong version of the song. Can this drumming novice pull a new version out of the bag in nust a few hours, and will the 13 000 strong audience cotton on?"
 
trkdrmr said:
Hmmm hard call. Maybe not master. But he exploded onto the scene and received many awards and accolades for his drumming.

I guess I could not put him on the same level as Steve Smith or Elvin Jones.
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He was part of a really good band to be sure. The police back in the day were AWESOME. Most of the drummers I hear giving him accolades are doing so because he plays very simple stuff requiring very little technique to execute. I've heard things like 'he never plays a drum solo because blah blah blah.' I suspect that the reason he never plays a drum solo is because he can't. Playing a non-scripted, improvised drum solo is not an easy thing to do. If I had to guess, I would say that fewer than 1% of drummers are capable soloists. I think that throwing accolades on Stewart Copeland is at best misguided. At worst, heaping accolades on an average-at-best drummer misdirects an entire subset of drummers into not practicing enough to truly master the instrument. You don't hear beginning cello players idolizing the community symphony 4th chair cellist. If they are smart the study someone like Yo Yo Ma if they are looking for a famous example who is also technically competent.
 
monstermook said:
He was part of a really good band to be sure. The police back in the day were AWESOME. Most of the drummers I hear giving him accolades are doing so because he plays very simple stuff requiring very little technique to execute. I've heard things like 'he never plays a drum solo because blah blah blah.' I suspect that the reason he never plays a drum solo is because he can't. Playing a non-scripted, improvised drum solo is not an easy thing to do. If I had to guess, I would say that fewer than 1% of drummers are capable soloists. I think that throwing accolades on Stewart Copeland is at best misguided. At worst, heaping accolades on an average-at-best drummer misdirects an entire subset of drummers into not practicing enough to truly master the instrument. You don't hear beginning cello players idolizing the community symphony 4th chair cellist. If they are smart the study someone like Yo Yo Ma if they are looking for a famous example who is also technically competent.
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Stewart's kit was the direct inspiration for my kit design. I love his 1986 synchronicity live tour sound. He got me into octabans, especially with the live cut of "One world/not three."(With the backup singers). He has my respect, but I think I liked his style, sound and execution more so than any masterful technique. MD voted him best up and coming drummer back in the day. I haven't seen him demonstrate any advanced technical stuff or solos either. It doesn't make me enjoy his work any less, but like I said, I can't call him a master drummer for the criteria you mentioned. The solo comments are en entirely separate debate. (Not just for Stewart, but the 1% comment, scripted vs non scripted and so on) It's a pretty well trodden topic.
 
Here's my little list of 'lousy- soloists-therefore- crappy- drummers':

Ringo Starr

Charlie Watts

Keith Moon ( well, maybe not him...he soloed all the time.. )

Steve Jordan

Clyde Stubblefield

Larry Mullen

Nick Mason

Jim Keltner

Sly Dunbar

Jabo Starks

Jim Gordon

Nigel Olsson



.....bunch of 8th note playing wimps...





.........
 
I think you're missing my point. I never said that you have to be a good soloist to be a good drummer. I must not have stated things clearly. What I dislike is Copeland's attitude that you are somehow being a pig or a show-off if you play a drum solo. When he talks about not playing solos it almost seems like he is claiming some moral superiority for not being a soloing drummer. I find his attitude extremely misleading. He is acting like he can play a drum solo and is making an artistic decision not to. Looking at the overall quality of his playing I would have to call shenanegans.

Regarding your list, fame does not necessarily translate into being a good drummer. The best one, in my opinion, on your list is Jim Gordon, who was a decent but not outstanding soloist. If you can find them, there are live recordings of him with Derek and the Dominoes. Also, one could argue that much of his work with Zappa was solo material. He is one of my favorite drummers. I would argue that he is far more technically capable than Copeland and FAR FAR FAR more influential. His problem is he was incarcerated in the 80's and has more or less been forgotten by a generation of drummers.

aydee said:
Here's my little list of 'lousy- soloists-therefore- crappy- drummers':

Ringo Starr

Charlie Watts

Keith Moon ( well, maybe not him...he soloed all the time.. )

Steve Jordan

Clyde Stubblefield

Larry Mullen

Nick Mason

Jim Keltner

Sly Dunbar

Jabo Starks

Jim Gordon

Nigel Olsson



.....bunch of 8th note playing wimps...





.........
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trkdrmr said:
Stewart's kit was the direct inspiration for my kit design. I love his 1986 synchronicity live tour sound. He got me into octabans, especially with the live cut of "One world/not three."(With the backup singers). He has my respect, but I think I liked his style, sound and execution more so than any masterful technique. MD voted him best up and coming drummer back in the day. I haven't seen him demonstrate any advanced technical stuff or solos either. It doesn't make me enjoy his work any less, but like I said, I can't call him a master drummer for the criteria you mentioned. The solo comments are en entirely separate debate. (Not just for Stewart, but the 1% comment, scripted vs non scripted and so on) It's a pretty well trodden topic.
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I don't think the solo comments are a separate issue. They are central to what I dislike about Copeland. He acts like he is making some big artistic statement by not playing drum solos, when in fact, it is highly dubious that he could solo, even if he wanted to. I like his playing and I like his composing. I just think that idolizing an average-at-best drummer is not what beginning drummers should be doing if they ever want to progress beyond mediocrity.
 
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monstermook said:
To give a 'master class' don't you have to be a master?
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I had a so-called "master class" with Jeff Rich. Jeff ruddy Rich, from Status Quo. There is this guy in 6th form that went up and played his kit and he played something twice as advanced as he every did. He had a black beauty though. He was really short as well.
 
lewisn27 said:
I had a so-called "master class" with Jeff Rich. Jeff ruddy Rich, from Status Quo. There is this guy in 6th form that went up and played his kit and he played something twice as advanced as he every did. He had a black beauty though. He was really short as well.
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You've made one of my points for me - being famous does not make you a master or even a good drummer. Black Beauty's are wonderful.
 
monstermook said:
I don't think the solo comments are a separate issue. They are central to what I dislike about Copeland. He acts like he is making some big artistic statement by not playing drum solos, when in fact, it is highly dubious that he could solo, even if he wanted to. I just think that idolizing an average-at-best drummer is not what beginning drummers should be doing if they ever want to progress beyond mediocrity.
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Stewart Copeland average at best? Mediocrity? In fact...dubious?

I think Aydee already started a good rebuttal on this. Those comments you made are going to open a big can of worms here for a few reasons. Expect lots of fallout.

I am not even going to bother debate at this point. I am going to write this thread off as doomed, walk off quietly, and go listen to some vintage Police. Have a nice debate.

EDIT: I bailed at the right time. People bashing Copeland, Elvin Jones and even jazz. The thread has even devolved into people insulting each other with so much posturing and angry bile rhetoric...just as I predicted. I am just watching in morbid curiosity. Much like observing a train wreck in progress.
 
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Ugh... This guy really turns me off. I can't stand his vibe as a person at all. Every interview i've read with him has left me wondering if he's kidding, or if he seriously thinks that much of himself, or that little of others. I don't think I would want to spend even 15 seconds talking to this guy. I just have absolutely no respect for him. I wonder how many times he's been punched in the face. My guess is not enough.

Now, all of that said, I do understand why his drumming is influential, and even great in terms of his contributions to the Police songs from the 80's. He is indeed a fine drummer in that context, so I hope my personal distaste for him as a human doesn't color anyone's perception of what I accept as his above par musicianship.

I'm also alergic to the term "master" when it comes to musicians in general. I understand the concept of a "master class" but I just really like to keep that term at arms length.
 
T.Underhill said:
That guy doesn't need a master class, he needs a beginner's class. Get with Copeland in a couple years.
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Ha! I thought the same, but that room sounded so bad that even when Stu was bashing the hell out of his kit it sounded like crap. Where was that being held, a highschool gymnasium?
 
monstermook said:
Most of the drummers I hear giving him accolades are doing so because he plays very simple stuff requiring very little technique to execute. I've heard things like 'he never plays a drum solo because blah blah blah.' I suspect that the reason he never plays a drum solo is because he can't.

Playing a non-scripted, improvised drum solo is not an easy thing to do. If I had to guess, I would say that fewer than 1% of drummers are capable soloists.

If they are smart the study someone like Yo Yo Ma if they are looking for a famous example who is also technically competent.
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Stewart Copeland is from a different world of music than most of us. He brought in a number of his eastern influences and some "reggae-ish" stuff to help define the sound that is The Police. Look at the music of The Police - does it warrant over the top drumming or intense solos? No. Copeland did what he needed to do and he made it interesting. The Police were a unique band and few could have fit what they did, but Copeland did and did well.

Drum soloing is not and should not be the measure of a musician. There are many a great drummer who may not be great soloists. Look at Neil Peart - his solos are scripted. Does that make him a bad drummer? Copeland may just not feel inclined to solo. Not every drummer has a giant ego and likes to show off. Just because he chooses not to solo doesn't mean he can't. I choose not to play in a latin band, not because I can't but because it doesn't appeal to me.

Look at Carter Beauford... doesn't solo very much. Sparingly. He's still pretty good.


In my opinion...If you're smart, you study multiple examples and combine them to form your own style, own approach and own feeling for an instrument. Anyone can be a clone. It takes something to be unique.

What sets Copeland apart from others is what he's done in and beyond drumming - film scores, projects, movies - how man drummers can say that? Check out the use of percussion on Wrapped Around Your Finger on the reunion tour - great stuff.
 
monstermook said:
To give a 'master class' don't you have to be a master? That really isn't a title I would grant to Copeland. He is probably a much better composer than he is a drummer and I give him much respect for his composing. As a drummer, not so much.
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While the video is obviously more for humor than an actual lesson, wow.

Ask 100 drummers to name their top 10 favorites, and Steward Copeland will come up more often than not.
 
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