"behind" or "ahead of" the beat

eddiehimself

eddiehimself

Platinum Member
hi guys this might sound a bit of a n00bish question but what is playing ahead of or behind the beat precisely? I'm guessing it pretty much speaks for itself but that as a concept i don't really get. I mean isn't drumming supposed to be ultimately down to making sure everyone else in the band plays on the beat, so therefore if you play in front of or behind the beat, so will everyone else or am i missing the point completely? If so what IS the point i seem to be missing?
 
eddiehimself said:
hi guys this might sound a bit of a n00bish question but what is playing ahead of or behind the beat precisely? I'm guessing it pretty much speaks for itself but that as a concept i don't really get. I mean isn't drumming supposed to be ultimately down to making sure everyone else in the band plays on the beat, so therefore if you play in front of or behind the beat, so will everyone else or am i missing the point completely? If so what IS the point i seem to be missing?
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I think there are at least a few threads on this but I'll comment. Both have more to do with "feel" than tangible, measurable specifics. "Ahead" of the beat (to me) means you're pushing the tempo a bit and therefore pushing the band along. Think of it as being slightly ahead of a click, if you're playing to one. It "feels" as if you're rushing the beat.

Of course, the same for being "behind" it. I've been "thinking triplets" more lately which I feel helps me stay behind the beat a little. For example...if I'm counting in my head while doing singles, I'll try counting them as triplets (with the "middle" note missing). This gives my feel an overall swingy, loose feel that sits slightly behind the beat.

Listening to different drummers with these characteristics is the easiest way to understand. I've heard folks here say that Buddy Rich "pushed" the beat a little while drummers like Ringo or Bonham sat slightly behind the beat.

When you hear people refer to "pocket" it's usually in reference to a feel that sits a little behind the beat...with very tight time.
 
Quite often playing behind the beat is confounded with getting slower...as for playing in front of the beat it`s just often vice versa.
Though it has to do with feel, not neccessarily with the tempo, at least not consciously.

Playing in front of the beat means to push it but without actually getting faster. You just extra-push it and these are just miliseconds which decide whether you play in front of the beat, on top of it or behind it.
This depends on the musical situation and on the musician.

Imagine that you play a straight swing for the big band. You might wanna push it and play in front of the beat to drive the whole thing. In my opinion the smaller the Jazz setting, the more you get the opportunity to relax and lay back a bit...if there`s no intention to extra-push it. The swing gives a good example, too:
Some drummers play it wide and open, others play it with little air...

If you`d like to I can recommend to listen to Billy Higgins here. Especially on the tune "Do I Crazy?" with John Scofield you hear this wide behind the beat-swing which almost creates a Latin feel sometimes.

http://www.drummerworld.com/Sound/billyhigginsdoicrazy.mp3

Then listen to this version of CTA by the Brad Mehldau trio with Jeff Ballard on drums. Completely different world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLQYwoPaTb4&feature=related

In the end playing in front, behind the beat or in between that depends on the whole band as well and surely mood and athmosphere aren`t unimportant.

Hope that helps a bit,

Karl
 
Also, if you play "just" ahead of the beat, it will make the group sound like it's chugging ahead or driving. If you play a little more than "just" ahead of the beat, it will sound as if the whole band is laying back. Same with behind the beat. Playing just behind the beat will make for a laid-back groove, but if you play farther back, it will make it sound like the group is driving the song forward.

There is a LOT of room to play around with this concept. I would recommend playing with a metronome and practicing playing ahead of, as well as just ahead of, as well as far ahead of, the click. Same with playing behind in different degrees. Then, play along with some recordings or with a band, and try out these different placements. You'll be surprised how much control over the feel you really have.

In simple rock or blues gigs, where you play basically the same tired beats over and over again, switching the feel will make every song sound fresh in its own way. Very important to do if you depend on call-backs and referrals for you livelihood...
 
Is everything behind the beat when you play behind? What I mean is, do you play with the hihat on the beat and the kick and snare behind, for example?

It seems like if you're whole pattern is behind, the rest of the band will just slow down with you. I'm a new drummer and I have no experience playing with a band so I'm just trying to envision what happens.
 
spazdr8cr said:
Is everything behind the beat when you play behind? What I mean is, do you play with the hihat on the beat and the kick and snare behind, for example?

It seems like if you're whole pattern is behind, the rest of the band will just slow down with you. I'm a new drummer and I have no experience playing with a band so I'm just trying to envision what happens.
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Not necessarily! You can play a backbeat w/ the snare on 2 and 4 and just drag those snare notes ever-so-slightly...while everything else carries at a "normal" pace.

Another example is ghost-notes on the snare, while grooving...you can make a beat "drag" or "rush" by placing them behind, on, or ahead of the accented notes.

Like Caddy said, there's a lot of room to play w/ this.
 
Grab a metronome or some form of click track and play at 110 bpm. Once you get comfy, try playing on top (push it), right on and behind (drag every beat a millisec, but stay with the click). You will find this helpful in endless musical styles and situations.
 
In my 2nd band situation (very short-lived) I had one song where the band leader played something and told me a basic idea for a beat and I started playing. But I was feeling a Bonham-esque / Kashmir thing and he didn't like it one bit. I guess he wanted it dead on top or ahead of the beat. I couldn't make it work and it got frustrating for everyone involved.

So there's a lot to this concept, especially if you're taking other players into account.

I feel as though copping the feel of the drummer in certain songs helps get the concept solidified in your brain. Playing Bonham / Led Zep helps you get behind the beat. Playing Kenny Aronoff beats in some Mellencamp songs ("Justice & Independence" comes to mind) helps you get the idea of being ahead of the beat.
 
eddiehimself said:
hi guys this might sound a bit of a n00bish question but what is playing ahead of or behind the beat precisely? I'm guessing it pretty much speaks for itself but that as a concept i don't really get. I mean isn't drumming supposed to be ultimately down to making sure everyone else in the band plays on the beat, so therefore if you play in front of or behind the beat, so will everyone else or am i missing the point completely? If so what IS the point i seem to be missing?
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I play behind the beat. I like the sound of the old time players.
 
Bo Eder said:
Well, this one isn’t a bad discussion. It helps people to get their playing to feel better, or at least ideas on how to adjust it. And there are so many drummers out there that just don’t feel right ?
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I agree Matt, and I've been guilty of resurrecting a zombie thread or two myself - usually through inattention :giggle:
 
I think the main thing is keeping it in the pocket and keeping it steady. Some tunes call for a driving beat.. kind of like you're just falling forward.. other tunes might require a really expressive kind of punch like a slow blues or a laid back kind of kick. A couple of tunes that come to mind;

driving - Fast as You - Dwight Yoakam
- always loved the feel on this one.. it's mostly on the beat but it sounds like the drummer is leaning on the high hat a bit - and it makes it sound like it's pushing and driving.. but then the snare fills sound a bit behind to me.. if the snare break was straignt on the beat it would sound less expressive and mechanical - so it's a bit of both in this case.

pulled back - Tennesse Whiskey - Chris stapleton
- notice when he counts it in the drummer is already clicking behind the beat!

The thing you want to avoid is playing out of the pocket with the band - I hate hearing drums that are draggy - that's the worst!
 
I use a flam to illustrate playing ahead and behind the beat. Imagine a flam on the note in question.

If the first stroke of the flam is on the beat, and the second stroke is obviously after the beat, if you remove the first stroke and only play the second, that's your "pulled" stroke.

If the second flam stroke is on the beat and the first stroke is ahead of the beat, if you remove the second stroke and only play the first one, that's your "pushed" stroke.
 
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bud7h4 said:
I use a flam to illustrate playing ahead and behind the beat. Imagine a flam on the note in question.

If the first stroke of the flam is on the beat, and the second stroke is obviously after the beat, if you remove the first stroke and only play the second, that's your "pulled" stroke.

If the second flam stroke is on the beat and the first stroke is ahead of the beat, if you remove the second stroke and only play the first one, that's your "pushed" stroke.
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Yes! I teach my students this idea with a flam. The hi hat is ON the beat. To play "ahead" of the beat, treat the bass/snare notes as the grace note to the flam. For playing "behind" the beat, treat the hi hat as the grace note and the bass/snare as the main note. Of course, I used the "air quotes" for ahead and behind, because this isn't how you actually play ahead and behind of a groove, but for most students, it demonstrates the idea well enough for them to get the concept down, and then they can mess around with it during their practice time.

2008. Wow! Zombie thread!
 
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