Tip: How to play behind the beat

Bill's video is indeed an excellent way of describing what is going on here.

But I have read a lot of articles that describe this concept in the same kind of terms as Mad About Drums does.

This to me isn't a concept focusing on ever note a drummer plays, more specific notes.

The way you feel a tune can make you push the kick but lay back with the snare. In a lot of cases I think this constitutes the personal make up of individual drummers and defines their signature sound.

I'm sure it can be practice, but I'm not overly sure it has a lot of benefit in doing so.
 
wsabol said:
I'm sorry if this derails the thread to a different topic, but the circle analogy really bugs me.

One hand, I love the circle analogy, where you have a space where your groove can live that give you the freedom to not be 100% shackled to the click Like you have a limited leash, still tied to the click, but you be any where around it you feel is appropriate.

On the other hand. A circle is two-dimensional and time is only one. What's the other dimension to complete the analogy? Balance maybe?? If you aren't going to have an analogous second dimension, the circle doesn't need to be a circle! just say you are on a line, or you are looking down along the plane of a pendulum swing so you only see the ball move back and forth along a line.. Maybe that's too nerdy, but this needs to be addressed.
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Haha why not let the other dimension be the volume of the strike.
So if the strike is in the left bottom corner it's a ghostbeat ahead. If it's right in the middle on top of the circle it's a loud beat right on time!
 
Thanks guys, glad the video helps! (Here it is again: http://www.drumworkout.com/groove-and-feel-aheadbehind-the-beat/)

Now, there is definitely some minor shifting ahead/behind within the drummer him/herself too. It's minor, but that's a part of where the grease does or doesn't happen. If every last bit is quantized to the grid, I don't think it'll sound good or groove at all. (My video blog was referring to the bigger picture.)

With this discussion in mind, here's a freebie for you guys to practice with:

I recorded a 12 minute drumset track to go with 12 fundamental hand technique exercises for a clinic. I noticed that there's definitely beat placement things going on within my drumset playing relative to the exercises being played on a pad/snare. It was all recorded burying the click, but still there's some dancing around the beat within my limbs that gives it some grease.

Go here http://www.drumworkout.com/tmea-clinic-packet-audio/ where you can download a pdf of the music and the mp3 play-along file. (It's also on the homepage under the "freebie TMEA clinic packet" link on the right side.)
 
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larryace said:
My stumbling point is "the beat". If there is no click to follow, I am the beat. How can I play behind myself? I can't. I am the reference point.
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You gotta shift your thought pattern! If you stop playing, the beat is still there. To steal Anthony's analogy again, music, and "the beat" are like a wave that's in the room, you're either riding that wave, (along with all the other people playing) or you're not. In that same way, you can hit your backbeat just ever so slightly after the beat that's in the room would dictate. Funk backbeats, for example typically wait until the last moment possible to whack the snare, and it creates a weird little pull in the music.
 
So I'm playing behind an imaginary pulse in the room, right? Who's to say I'm not playing way in front of a different pulse? See my conundrum? But I understand what you are saying, but when I try and break it down, it falls apart. I'm like Bill Bachman, I don't even think about it. It's all about where you land the backbeat creating a more urgent, or more laid back feel, which is song dependent.
 
larryace said:
So I'm playing behind an imaginary pulse in the room, right?
Click to expand...
If everyone in the room can feel that same pulse, how could it be imaginary? Even the people standing in the audience tapping their feet along with the music feel that same pulse.

Who's to say I'm not playing way in front of a different pulse?
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When a band is on it, it's tangible in the room. If you play off-pulse, or "off-beat" as most people say, everyone knows you screwed it... They don't think "hey, he's playing ahead to a different pulse!". That's not how it works. "Once the tune is counted off, the pulse is in the room."

See my conundrum? But I understand what you are saying, but when I try and break it down, it falls apart. I'm like Bill Bachman, I don't even think about it. It's all about where you land the backbeat creating a more urgent, or more laid back feel, which is song dependent.
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I don't see your conundrum, to be honest. It sounds to me like you have a pretty good grasp of this. Typically, you'll keep the same pulse throughout a song. Playing your snare, or backbeat just slightly ahead or behind your pulse creates a different feel, and it really is "ahead" or "behind" the beat, in fact, usually the other notes being played are still on the original pulse directly.

One thing is for sure, though... You don't have to "think" about it to do it. It's just the right feel for a lot of music, especially if you listen to a lot yourself. That said, it is pretty cool sometimes to understand how things work; thinking further into stuff can get you there.
 
I may have just had a light bulb moment.

Like Larry, I could never understand how the drummer was ahead of or behind the beat, because the drummer is the beat. (Leaving aside for a moment the notion that "the beat is in the room".)

My epiphany is that it is only one element of the kit (eg, snare) that is played ahead of or behind the beat. If the drummer plays the whole groove ahead of or behind "the beat" then that just moves the beat ahead or back and the whole band will follow. But if it is just the snare that is being played behind the beat, then the beat stays where it is, but with a slight change of flavour, if you can pardon the mixed metaphor.

Or is my epiphany and epipha-no?
 
If the drums are the beat, then why would they sound bad when they rush or drag?

When everybody rushes or drags together, it can still sound fine, but if not then the drummer sounds horrible--more so than the other musicians.

Here's a related example: Years ago I recorded some stuff with a guy playing acoustic guitar and singing in the control room. The click was going and since we were "laying down the drums" I figured the drums were permanent and the rest was scratch. His time was all over the place and I chose to lock into the click (since he wanted a solid drum track after all, right?). Then we went into the control room to listen back minus the click. He sounded great, I sounded horrible--like I had terrible time and couldn't groove at all. To me that proves the point, the "beat" is established by the dominant melodic material, not the drums. If you solo'd me or just me and the click, you would have heard me playing metronomic time in the pocket.

That day I got canned.

Lesson learned though: In the future when that situation happens, ask, "Can you solo just me and the click?" That way they hear you sounding good in the pocket with the click and your credibility is restored. From there, you say something like, "Let's try it again without the click so we can really feel it out together." This is a PC way of saying, "You've got horrible time so let's remove the obstacle which shouldn't be an obstacle so I can get paid and on my way."
 
I'm not great at this stuff either but my opinion; If the drummer believes he is the centre of the universe (the beat) then yes, by moving the goal posts the other instruments are going to be placed differently, at least to his ears.

But I think all of the instruments are creating the time, and the real pulse is an average of all of them, so yes I think the drummer can play ahead, on or behind the beat in a band situation.

Maybe you need to play with an arrogant guitarists to see this (lol). I have played with guys who were terrible listeners, and in a way I think they took ownership of the pulse.

If you want to practice this, playing with a metronome clears any confusion about where the beat is. You can have everything (kick, snare, hats etc) late or on time or you can choose to play ahead, on and behind the beat with each limb individually, if you are able to do that.

I've been trying the late snare thing lately, Dennis Chambers is actually the guy that mentioned this in a clinic I saw last year.
 
JustJames said:
My epiphany is that it is only one element of the kit (eg, snare) that is played ahead of or behind the beat. If the drummer plays the whole groove ahead of or behind "the beat" then that just moves the beat ahead or back and the whole band will follow. But if it is just the snare that is being played behind the beat, then the beat stays where it is, but with a slight change of flavour, if you can pardon the mixed metaphor.

Or is my epiphany and epipha-no?
Click to expand...

That's always been my understanding of the concept, and it's certainly how it was explained to me way back when.

It's predominantly a feel that is guided by the placement of the back beat on the snare. drum. You can slightly delay it for a more laboured feel or you can place it ever so slightly early, which lends itself to an overall feel of a little more intensity or urgency. This is not something that is so drastic or noticeable that I'd bother trying to ascribe a note value to, in terms of the "grid"....i.e, I've seen people ask, it is a 32nd or a 64th note before or after. To me that over complicates it and causes more confusion than is necessary in order to explain the concept. Basically the time itself, in terms of bpm, doesn't change. But the overall feel does due to the laboured or rushed "feel" the back beat offers.. It's a subtlety that can be used with great effect.
 
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BillBachman said:
To me that proves the point, the "beat" is established by the dominant melodic material, not the drums. If you solo'd me or just me and the click, you would have heard me playing metronomic time in the pocket.
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This!

When a drummer plays to a click live (as the only one), and the band pushes, the audience
won't think "man that band pushes poor drummer away from the beat", but they will feel
the drummer actually pulls and is too laid back.
 
JustJames said:
My epiphany is that it is only one element of the kit (eg, snare) that is played ahead of or behind the beat.
Click to expand...
That's that basis I'm working on and I'm fairly new to putting this into practice. Also I read that Al Jackson Jr reportedly told a young Duck Dunn to delay the 2 and 4 a hair to get the swing. Been playing along to a lot of Al lately and I'm sure I feel this delay he's on about. Try Hold on I'm Coming for an example of it.
 
JustJames said:
I may have just had a light bulb moment.

Like Larry, I could never understand how the drummer was ahead of or behind the beat, because the drummer is the beat. (Leaving aside for a moment the notion that "the beat is in the room".)

My epiphany is that it is only one element of the kit (eg, snare) that is played ahead of or behind the beat. If the drummer plays the whole groove ahead of or behind "the beat" then that just moves the beat ahead or back and the whole band will follow. But if it is just the snare that is being played behind the beat, then the beat stays where it is, but with a slight change of flavour, if you can pardon the mixed metaphor.

Or is my epiphany and epipha-no?
Click to expand...

Liebe zeit said:
That's that basis I'm working on and I'm fairly new to putting this into practice. Also I read that Al Jackson Jr reportedly told a young Duck Dunn to delay the 2 and 4 a hair to get the swing. Been playing along to a lot of Al lately and I'm sure I feel this delay he's on about. Try Hold on I'm Coming for an example of it.
Click to expand...

I second the epiphanaic nature of this! I have definately read many articles on the signature sound of a number of drummers being the way they play individual limbs, commonly the backbeat, but often the ride/hats and kick slightly either side of the beat.

although you can add in pushes and pulls with the whole kit. stabby sections might be a bit more urgent sounding for example. This kind of 'time-shifting' though is best thought of in the context of everything Bill has said so far. There needs to be a fixed time from a click for you to know you've done it. Everyone in the band plays the same slightly urgent accents. Remove the click and it just 'is'
 
BillBachman said:
If the drums are the beat, then why would they sound bad when they rush or drag?

When everybody rushes or drags together, it can still sound fine, but if not then the drummer sounds horrible--more so than the other musicians.

Here's a related example: Years ago I recorded some stuff with a guy playing acoustic guitar and singing in the control room. The click was going and since we were "laying down the drums" I figured the drums were permanent and the rest was scratch. His time was all over the place and I chose to lock into the click (since he wanted a solid drum track after all, right?). Then we went into the control room to listen back minus the click. He sounded great, I sounded horrible--like I had terrible time and couldn't groove at all. To me that proves the point, the "beat" is established by the dominant melodic material, not the drums. If you solo'd me or just me and the click, you would have heard me playing metronomic time in the pocket.

That day I got canned.

Lesson learned though: In the future when that situation happens, ask, "Can you solo just me and the click?" That way they hear you sounding good in the pocket with the click and your credibility is restored. From there, you say something like, "Let's try it again without the click so we can really feel it out together." This is a PC way of saying, "You've got horrible time so let's remove the obstacle which shouldn't be an obstacle so I can get paid and on my way."
Click to expand...

this happened to me about 2 weeks ago

I was tracking for an artist named Pat Cat at Death is Waiting Studio

Pat wasn't there , just the engineer and I and Pat had tracked acoustic guitar and a vocal to a click.... the guitar was so horribly off time that I had the engineer just roll the vocal for reference and click after we tried one take with the guitar in.

we got a dead on take .... he sends it to Pat.... Pat calls him and says the drums are completely out of time ... fire the drummer

the engineer Chingas tells Pat to come to the studio so he can show him that it is not the drums that are out of time but his guitar .. he comes and realizes it is him and that the drum take is perfect ..... he hires me to finish the record

but perception is an odd thing..... when we rolled back the first take before we tracked without guitar I was shocked and could not believe I was so out of time..... I asked the engineer if it could possibly be latency..... it sounded awful .... my ear naturally went to the guitar and vocal and my perception was telling me that the drums were completely off....

until we soloed the drums and click .... the truth arose
 
WhoIsTony? said:
this happened to me about 2 weeks ago

I was tracking for an artist named Pat Cat at Death is Waiting Studio

Pat wasn't there , just the engineer and I and Pat had tracked acoustic guitar and a vocal to a click.... the guitar was so horribly off time that I had the engineer just roll the vocal for reference and click after we tried one take with the guitar in.

we got a dead on take .... he sends it to Pat.... Pat calls him and says the drums are completely out of time ... fire the drummer

the engineer Chingas tells Pat to come to the studio so he can show him that it is not the drums that are out of time but his guitar .. he comes and realizes it is him and that the drum take is perfect ..... he hires me to finish the record

but perception is an odd thing..... when we rolled back the first take before we tracked without guitar I was shocked and could not believe I was so out of time..... I asked the engineer if it could possibly be latency..... it sounded awful .... my ear naturally went to the guitar and vocal and my perception was telling me that the drums were completely off....

until we soloed the drums and click .... the truth arose
Click to expand...

I think a mix can create these weird perceptions too.

Now this isn't a pro scenario example, but I once tracked 12 - 14 songs of drums to a click. We did the whole thing ourselves in our rehearsal room. hired a bunch of mic's etc.

Listening back to the raw unprocessed drum files against the click, it was some of the best playing I've ever achieved.

By the time our bass player had mixed it and 'finished' it, some of my playing sounds really bad. I believe there was some 'cleaning' of the files done and somehow the life has been sucked out of the drums to the point where it just sort of doesn't fit and sound in time anymore in places.
 
BillBachman said:
If the drums are the beat, then why would they sound bad when they rush or drag?

When everybody rushes or drags together, it can still sound fine, but if not then the drummer sounds horrible--more so than the other musicians.

Here's a related example: Years ago I recorded some stuff with a guy playing acoustic guitar and singing in the control room. The click was going and since we were "laying down the drums" I figured the drums were permanent and the rest was scratch. His time was all over the place and I chose to lock into the click (since he wanted a solid drum track after all, right?). Then we went into the control room to listen back minus the click. He sounded great, I sounded horrible--like I had terrible time and couldn't groove at all. To me that proves the point, the "beat" is established by the dominant melodic material, not the drums. If you solo'd me or just me and the click, you would have heard me playing metronomic time in the pocket.

That day I got canned.

Lesson learned though: In the future when that situation happens, ask, "Can you solo just me and the click?" That way they hear you sounding good in the pocket with the click and your credibility is restored. From there, you say something like, "Let's try it again without the click so we can really feel it out together." This is a PC way of saying, "You've got horrible time so let's remove the obstacle which shouldn't be an obstacle so I can get paid and on my way."
Click to expand...
Add me to the list of drummers who have experienced this.

Last year, my band was in the studio finishing the mix of a track we had just recorded. During playback, there was something not right during one of the stops. I immediately thought it was me. I remembered laying the track down and everything felt fine, so it was pretty disappointing to realize that I came in so far off the beat after a short break in the music.

But our producer plays back the isolated drums and, lo and behold, they're in time. He says, "Okay, it's not the drums." We figured out it was the guitar part that was out of time. But that was not obvious at all. I went from feeling really self-conscious about my drum part to feeling really good in a manner of seconds.

It's amazing how much another out-of-time instrument can make you sound bad as a drummer.
 
Diet Kirk said:
I think a mix can create these weird perceptions too.

Now this isn't a pro scenario example, but I once tracked 12 - 14 songs of drums to a click. We did the whole thing ourselves in our rehearsal room. hired a bunch of mic's etc.

Listening back to the raw unprocessed drum files against the click, it was some of the best playing I've ever achieved.

By the time our bass player had mixed it and 'finished' it, some of my playing sounds really bad. I believe there was some 'cleaning' of the files done and somehow the life has been sucked out of the drums to the point where it just sort of doesn't fit and sound in time anymore in places.
Click to expand...

again I had a similar experience some years ago

I recorded a record at New Alliance Studio in Boston and the engineer on this particular record wasn't one of the guys I was used to working with at that studio and he was obsessed with cleaning up "noise" on tracks

I noticed him tediously going through the sound waves and pulling out all the tiny little waves ... I thought it was a bit strange that he was doing that but didn't say anything ..... he seemed to know what he was doing and the producer had no problem with it .

we all sat and talked while he did whatever he was doing .... I remember thinking that we should probably listen back before you start pulling stuff off the track.... and I should have said something because when he played the track back it turns out everything he was removing was all ghost notes and tiny nuances in my playing and all he left where attack hits.

and when I say it sounded awful... that is a complete understatement .....

everyone in the control room was like... what the hell happened to the drum track ??

the producer kinda blew a gasket and took Ethan the engineer off the project immediately

we had to do the tune over obviously .... wasting a record labels money by deleting parts of the music is not a good way to start a project
 
WhoIsTony? said:
again I had a similar experience some years ago

I recorded a record at New Alliance Studio in Boston and the engineer on this particular record wasn't one of the guys I was used to working with at that studio and he was obsessed with cleaning up "noise" on tracks

I noticed him tediously going through the sound waves and pulling out all the tiny little waves ... I thought it was a bit strange that he was doing that but didn't say anything ..... he seemed to know what he was doing and the producer had no problem with it .

we all sat and talked while he did whatever he was doing .... I remember thinking that we should probably listen back before you start pulling stuff off the track.... and I should have said something because when he played the track back it turns out everything he was removing was all ghost notes and tiny nuances in my playing and all he left where attack hits.

and when I say it sounded awful... that is a complete understatement .....

everyone in the control room was like... what the hell happened to the drum track ??

the producer kinda blew a gasket and took Ethan the engineer off the project immediately

we had to do the tune over obviously .... wasting a record labels money by deleting parts of the music is not a good way to start a project
Click to expand...

Oh my he hard removed the sections with no back up! Well I hope he learned two valuable lessons from that one!
 
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