The tempo is wrong!!

[JimmyM]

I don't think there's much merit in that acoustics idea.

I think it is more just a matter of context - creating a record is the all-purpose starting point tempo-wise. Depending on the song and arrangement it may need to be exciting, but not frantic... or chill, but not too chill - with the idea of how the song works all by itself.

Now put that song in a concert setting - and there's now nothing all-purpose or generic in its function - it is now the song that comes after this three songs and before what follows. In that "context", how does the tempo feel? Too fast? Too Slow? In that setting, choosing the tempo that works - for that specific setting - is all that matters. Nobody during the concert - on or off the stage - is sitting there with a BPM counting app and a list of the original recorded tempo giving the concert a grade for its accuracy - as accuracy is absolutely not the point.

In its slot in the show - does the song invoke the feeling you want? The feeling that people in the audience will remember it having.

This is similar to the way club DJ's work - modern DJing is all about mix and matching songs and their tempos - to create long fluid extended dance sets (that don't change tempo with each new song) - so keeping the dance floor packed with tempos far altered from the original is the norm.

Now wedding DJ's do some of that - while also a great deal of the time, functioning exactly like a jukebox - with annoying announcements.

For the life of me, I can't fathom why so many modern cover bands playing clubs and weddings are so obsessed with slavishly adhering to original recorded tempos. To the point of choosing to play the "correct: tempo rather than whatever tempo feels best for their band.... or for the context of the performance.

Choosing to never just "feel it" - as opposed to always defaulting to "Nope, gotta check the list - and do it exactly as we did it last weekend - and chastise ourself if we deviate from that rigid, inflexible discipline at all". It makes me wonder, why even bother with a band? Why bother paying for the possibility of a unique and "in the moment" performance, if cookie-cutter, just like the record, down to the exact BPM performance is all I'm going to get? Can't I just hire a DJ? And for less money? And with live bands demanding an ever smaller piece of the entertainment pie - I wonder how many potential clients have pondered the same question?

I get this won't be a popular sentiment these days - but I think with so many advancement in the arts, where "correct" is easy to attain them ever before.... correct tempo, correct pitch, correct color balance, perfectly sharp pictures, and on and on, we are starting to face the question more and more often - is "correct" really the point?

I’m glad you typed this because it’s exactly how I feel. The only time I have a complaint is when someone plays something so fast that it makes it difficult to play or sing. People are not perfect, and tempos aren’t always perfect unless you use a click. But sometimes those little deviations are just what the doctor ordered. If they’re too big, not good. But arguing over 5-10 bpm? What’s the point? At some point it’s pee pee sizing.

 

[JimmyM]

A good example of how click becoming ubiquitous in pop/rock music is not necessarily a good thing. Back in Black was released in 1980 - it is highly, highly unlikely that it was track to any kind of a click at all.

They played what felt good - more than likely cutting a basic track with a scratch vocal altogether, at the same time. Determining the exact tempo, right then, as they were playing it. Basically the way most all music was recorded prior to the mid-80's.

And this is with Mutt Lange producing, a guy often blamed for producing the soul right out of the music (rightly so, but not so much with AC/DC).

 

[Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX]

For the life of me, I can't fathom why so many modern cover bands playing clubs and weddings are so obsessed with slavishly adhering to original recorded tempos. To the point of choosing to play the "correct: tempo rather than whatever tempo feels best for their band.... or for the context of the performance.

Choosing to never just "feel it" - as opposed to always defaulting to "Nope, gotta check the list - and do it exactly as we did it last weekend - and chastise ourself if we deviate from that rigid, inflexible discipline at all". It makes me wonder, why even bother with a band? Why bother paying for the possibility of a unique and "in the moment" performance, if cookie-cutter, just like the record, down to the exact BPM performance is all I'm going to get? Can't I just hire a DJ? And for less money? And with live bands demanding an ever smaller piece of the entertainment pie - I wonder how many potential clients have pondered the same question?

I think this comes from places where the notion that if the drummer is not a human metronome, they are not a good drummer. Phrases like: "the drummer drives the band" and "it is the drummers job to keep tempo" get misconstrued into biblical truths. Movies lie Whiplash don't help either...

Case in point: me. When I joined the jazz band I have been in now for 7 years, I was terrified in the first year because I had heard from many drumming "authorities" that jazz guys were brutal to drummers if they couldn't keep steady time. I was on pins and needles for the first 6 motnhs just waiting to get the boot if I dropped tempo, or did not know the tempo fo the version of the song we were doing. It took me about a year to realize that: tempos were not even on their radar screen unless it was real bad; they were dealing with their own execution and arrangement issues

I learned a LOT about not listening to the "chatter" from people who think they are experts, and to just trust myself.

I get this won't be a popular sentiment these days - but I think with so many advancement in the arts, where "correct" is easy to attain them ever before.... correct tempo, correct pitch, correct color balance, perfectly sharp pictures, and on and on, we are starting to face the question more and more often - is "correct" really the point?

or is "correct" that perfectly quantized version? I think that over the past 20 years, peoples ears have been trained maybe to live in the quantized world, and that is the new definition of correct. My students are sometimes confused when i play them my original versions of 80's music, both by the general sound of the recordings, and the tempo flux sometimes. They are just not used to it.

I think correct is the point, but it is driven by the stylistic choice in the moment. I don't think it would be correct to play "Kind Of Blue" all quantized up and "click track in the ear"....and in the same way, it would not be correct to play "Jesus Built My Hot Rod" (Ministry) without a quantized click track

 

[JimmyM]

I think this comes from places where the notion that if the drummer is not a human metronome, they are not a good drummer. Phrases like: "the drummer drives the band" and "it is the drummers job to keep tempo" get misconstrued into biblical truths. Movies lie Whiplash don't help either...

Case in point: me. When I joined the jazz band I have been in now for 7 years, I was terrified in the first year because I had heard from many drumming "authorities" that jazz guys were brutal to drummers if they couldn't keep steady time. I was on pins and needles for the first 6 motnhs just waiting to get the boot if I dropped tempo, or did not know the tempo fo the version of the song we were doing. It took me about a year to realize that: tempos were not even on their radar screen unless it was real bad; they were dealing with their own execution and arrangement issues

I learned a LOT about not listening to the "chatter" from people who think they are experts, and to just trust myself.



or is "correct" that perfectly quantized version? I think that over the past 20 years, peoples ears have been trained maybe to live in the quantized world, and that is the new definition of correct. My students are sometimes confused when i play them my original versions of 80's music, both by the general sound of the recordings, and the tempo flux sometimes. They are just not used to it.

I think correct is the point, but it is driven by the stylistic choice in the moment. I don't think it would be correct to play "Kind Of Blue" all quantized up and "click track in the ear"....and in the same way, it would not be correct to play "Jesus Built My Hot Rod" (Ministry) without a quantized click track

That last statement is sort of true, but is it true because it’s actually true or because it’s mostly programmed and it’s tough to play to tracks live without a strict click?

 

[Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX]

That last statement is sort of true, but is it true because it’s actually true or because it’s mostly programmed and it’s tough to play to tracks live without a strict click?

for me, it is true b/c I could not imagine taking tempo liberties with a song like that, unless it was on purpose for the specific interpretation (like Ministry - A Jazz Odyssey....). If I was to play industrial/electronic music, I would be as machine like as I could be

 

[JimmyM]

for me, it is true b/c I could not imagine taking tempo liberties with a song like that, unless it was on purpose for the specific interpretation (like Ministry - A Jazz Odyssey....). If I was to play industrial/electronic music, I would be as machine like as I could be

And that’s why I like Devo’s first two albums better than the rest. Not that I dislike their later stuff, but it lost something the more that the machines took over.

 

[RVC]

Choosing to never just "feel it" - as opposed to always defaulting to "Nope, gotta check the list - and do it exactly as we did it last weekend - and chastise ourself if we deviate from that rigid, inflexible discipline at all". It makes me wonder, why even bother with a band? Why bother paying for the possibility of a unique and "in the moment" performance, if cookie-cutter, just like the record, down to the exact BPM performance is all I'm going to get? Can't I just hire a DJ? And for less money? And with live bands demanding an ever smaller piece of the entertainment pie - I wonder how many potential clients have pondered the same question?

This is powerful, @dcrigger, and pertinent to my own situation. I’ve posted many times here about my duo outfit being my primary gig (and primary source of income). The duo is a vox/keys guy and myself. Simply by lack of other instrumentation alone, we are unique, but I believe more is at play here (pun intended).

The singer/keys dude is a worship pastor at a large church - his entire job focus is to get an audience actively participating in a high-energy worship experience. This carries over to our duo as well. Tempos are never the same two nights in a row, we’ve NEVER had a written-in-stone setlist, and he’ll often spring songs on me in a live situation that I’ve never played or sometimes even heard before.

All that to say he is a master of customization - he can read a crowd like nobody I’ve ever seen and tailor different setlists (seemingly out of his a$$) for multiple demographics on a nightly basis. That, along with the sparse sound of the duo format, allows us to offer something unique that has truly resonated with our clientele. Even when he offers full band services for larger private events, 9 times out of 10 they request the duo.

Obviously, everyone’s situation is different, but what you wrote makes a lot of sense to me when I look at it through the filter of my own experience. Super interesting topic to me. Thanks to everyone for your contributions. I’m learning a lot as I follow this thread!

 

[dcrigger]

That last statement is sort of true, but is it true because it’s actually true or because it’s mostly programmed and it’s tough to play to tracks live without a strict click?

IMO as soon as we are playing to an existing track - our role as drummer changes. We have no say in where the tempo goes - even in the most minor way. In a nutshell, we are no longer driving the bus.

Personally - I often very much enjoy programmed, sequenced music - I have no problem with it at all - again, quite the opposite. The drummer's role is different than in non-programmed music, but that's cool with me. Those differences are an essential part of what it is musically.

My regret is the degree we've shoehorned that production method onto music that truly isn't served by it. I get why it has happened.... and that is because it is economical efficient. The whole process of being able to create a presentable demo - even likely raising money on the demos merit (or doing a production has to be signed off before proceeding) - then moving it's as much about making the demo better, without actually changing it that much. And that's more easily done in a sure fire, controlled fashion laying down one part, one player at a time - these not even in the same location, etc. It's safer - and no point is the producer risking very much budget at one time.

Have a drummer record a couple of tracks - if they work out, do some more... if they don't, tossing them effects nothing else.

Compared to the pre-mid-80's production method... Gather ever one together for a week or two - and try and capture some magic. Gather together all the right elements and magic just might happen... but if it doesn't.... yikes.. One week of a big, real studio's time, a weeks worth of musician payments.... lots of money... and it might not work.

It is simply a more corporate mindset to making music.... money spent should return a sellable product. Back in the old days, there was no choice - if you want music recorded, you had to roll the dice. But then sequencing and it's start with a demo, then build on top of it approach - offered an approach that cold be applied to everything and insure that things always turned out good, correct, professional sounding...

We are now in the business of manufacturer a semblance of magic - rather than trying to capture it.

But that's recording....

But again, for the life of me, that doesn't explain why so many live bands - club bands - wedding bands - feel the necessity to handicap themselves with being slaves to clicks (unless they serve some necessary function to the music - ie: tons of pre-sequenced material.

 

[Chris Whitten]

I have a slightly different take on all this...
The main thing about the tempo being wrong is 90% artist psychology. Of course, no top drawer drummer is going to play the song at the wrong tempo. I saw Keith Carlock consulting his metronome before every song on tour with Steely Dan in 2008.
For example, I have never been a slowing down drummer. I was in rehearsal with a well known band and every time we started a certain song the singer stood us and turned round to me angrily stating I had slowed down. In the end, I started rehearsing with a drum machine in an ear piece.
We started the sing and the band started racing away. I kept a steady tempo and hadn't slowed down. It transpired that the previous drummer to me had always sped up and that's what the band had grown used to.
I do speed up a bit and am very happy to play to a click both in the studio and live. Most of the time on a top tour, if the drummer is told they are playing the song at the wring tempo, it is because the singer is upset about something else, or very nervous about that night's show. Likewise, many times I've heard drummers say the artist kept telling them to speed the songs up, if the night wasn't going well, or the singer was nervous.

 

[Stickman]

To the point of choosing to play the "correct: tempo rather than whatever tempo feels best for their band.... or for the context of the performance.

I like the sentiment of the 'hurry up offense' and reading the room.. I play in one band that does that all the time.. and changes the setlist on the fly. In most cases the tempo just falls into the sweet spot.. and we all know when it feels right. We use a rough formula of 3-4 uptempo dance tunes and then a slow one as some people always like a slow waltz so they can hang on to their partner.. but if the crowd is going crazy then we call an 'audible' and pick a tune that matches the crowd.
In another band, the issue is the Diva type singer that insists on a specific tempo so the words are not 'too slow' or 'too fast' .. but ''just right' like in Goldilocks.. it drives everyone in the band crazy - but she's an awesome singer Lol.

 

[Dr_Watso]

Singers can’t learn this way. You need to be playing a rhythm section instrument for that to happen. And the clock is a MUCH faster way to get there then simply playing with others, just saying

I'm curious why you would say that. Most of the singers you've worked with had a bad sense of time? How do they come in at the right place and harmonize with the changes if they can't discern the right tempo to sing at? I guess they're just pulling you all to whatever tempo they want to sing at in the moment?

I also don't really see it as a thing to "get to"... Both click guided and non-click guided playing are equally important skills for different reasons. I typically practice by myself with clicks but when with a band I'd never want us to be slaved to anything unless there's a good reason like a backing track or something.

I could just be lucky to mostly play anything serious with players who have a good feel already and we basically never argue or even discuss tempo, we count off, and that's the basic speed for the tune. If someone loses their place or something feels off there's just a sort of non-verbal negotiation that happens naturally and we all just fall back into a good groove.

Edit because I read something that resonated above:

It took me about a year to realize that: tempos were not even on their radar screen unless it was real bad; they were dealing with their own execution and arrangement issues

I think this is a good way to put it, simply put it's not really even anything we worry about because we can all feel and all know when it's not right or not working. None of us give a crap what the tempo number is if it sounds good.

 

[Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX]

IMO as soon as we are playing to an existing track - our role as drummer changes. We have no say in where the tempo goes - even in the most minor way. In a nutshell, we are no longer driving the bus.

Personally - I often very much enjoy programmed, sequenced music - I have no problem with it at all - again, quite the opposite. The drummer's role is different than in non-programmed music, but that's cool with me. Those differences are an essential part of what it is musically.

My regret is the degree we've shoehorned that production method onto music that truly isn't served by it. I get why it has happened.... and that is because it is economical efficient. The whole process of being able to create a presentable demo - even likely raising money on the demos merit (or doing a production has to be signed off before proceeding) - then moving it's as much about making the demo better, without actually changing it that much. And that's more easily done in a sure fire, controlled fashion laying down one part, one player at a time - these not even in the same location, etc. It's safer - and no point is the producer risking very much budget at one time.

Have a drummer record a couple of tracks - if they work out, do some more... if they don't, tossing them effects nothing else.

Compared to the pre-mid-80's production method... Gather ever one together for a week or two - and try and capture some magic. Gather together all the right elements and magic just might happen... but if it doesn't.... yikes.. One week of a big, real studio's time, a weeks worth of musician payments.... lots of money... and it might not work.

It is simply a more corporate mindset to making music.... money spent should return a sellable product. Back in the old days, there was no choice - if you want music recorded, you had to roll the dice. But then sequencing and it's start with a demo, then build on top of it approach - offered an approach that cold be applied to everything and insure that things always turned out good, correct, professional sounding...

We are now in the business of manufacturer a semblance of magic - rather than trying to capture it.

But that's recording....

But again, for the life of me, that doesn't explain why so many live bands - club bands - wedding bands - feel the necessity to handicap themselves with being slaves to clicks (unless they serve some necessary function to the music - ie: tons of pre-sequenced material.

I can not agree with this post more!!!! Bravo!!!!

and i am very lucky that both the bands I play in record using the old school "everyone does the rhythm tracks together" method. There is truly no way to replicate that tight vibe by doing it that way. We even stop to fix drum ticks, rather than just "overdubbing" things in...that is more motivated by the engineer, who can do overdubs, but doesn't like to if time allows.

we also don't use clicks in the studio

and I also think that some of that "magic" in the studio comes from being there for the whole process...load in, set up, micing, getting sounds, analyzing takes....that is "vibe time" for the group, at least for me.

 

[Push pull stroke]

I'm curious why you would say that. Most of the singers you've worked with had a bad sense of time? How do they come in at the right place and harmonize with the changes if they can't discern the right tempo to sing at? I guess they're just pulling you all to whatever tempo they want to sing at in the moment?

I also don't really see it as a thing to "get to"... Both click guided and non-click guided playing are equally important skills for different reasons. I typically practice by myself with clicks but when with a band I'd never want us to be slaved to anything unless there's a good reason like a backing track or something.

I could just be lucky to mostly play anything serious with players who have a good feel already and we basically never argue or even discuss tempo, we count off, and that's the basic speed for the tune. If someone loses their place or something feels off there's just a sort of non-verbal negotiation that happens naturally and we all just fall back into a good groove.

Edit because I read something that resonated above:

I think this is a good way to put it, simply put it's not really even anything we worry about because we can all feel and all know when it's not right or not working. None of us give a crap what the tempo number is if it sounds good.

I have never met a singer who could keep a steady beat, unless they are also a drummer. Same for piano players. Let’s stop enabling bad time. Gentleness isn’t solving this problem

 

[Dr_Watso]

I have never met a singer who could keep a steady beat, unless they are also a drummer. Same for piano players. Let’s stop enabling bad time. Gentleness isn’t solving this problem

Wow that's crazy! I guess if they really have no clue and constantly blame you, what choices do you have other than to slave everyone to click for the purposes of freaking defending your own honor, or find another group.

I mean no disrespect but feel kinda bad for you if that's really your experience in music with others. I have met people that I didn't gel with musically and even had a few "problems" like you describe but they didn't last long and I apparently get really lucky with good musicians and singers to work with.

What you're describing is totally alien to me! To be honest I'd get pissed off pretty quick in those situations.

 

[Push pull stroke]

Wow that's crazy! I guess if they really have no clue and constantly blame you, what choices do you have other than to slave everyone to click for the purposes of freaking defending your own honor, or find another group.

I mean no disrespect but feel kinda bad for you if that's really your experience in music with others. I have met people that I didn't gel with musically and even had a few "problems" like you describe but they didn't last long and I apparently get really lucky with good musicians and singers to work with.

What you're describing is totally alien to me! To be honest I'd get pissed off pretty quick in those situations.

It’s called “classical music”. And yes, it’s a f**king slog

 

[Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX]

I have never met a singer who could keep a steady beat, unless they are also a drummer. Same for piano players. Let’s stop enabling bad time. Gentleness isn’t solving this problem

Wow that's crazy! I guess if they really have no clue and constantly blame you, what choices do you have other than to slave everyone to click for the purposes of freaking defending your own honor, or find another group.

I mean no disrespect but feel kinda bad for you if that's really your experience in music with others. I have met people that I didn't gel with musically and even had a few "problems" like you describe but they didn't last long and I apparently get really lucky with good musicians and singers to work with.

What you're describing is totally alien to me! To be honest I'd get pissed off pretty quick in those situations.

actually, I have also found my self in this situation....90% of singers - who did not also play an instrument - that I have worked with, have pretty bad subdivisional and phrasing sense for sure, if not difficulty finding the pulse.

and sadly, a lot of times they almost wear it as a badge of honor:"I don't know how to count, but I never miss a cue from the conductor/band leader " etc...

when I was in music school , there were NO voice majors who understood subdivisional and phrasing sense...everything was "by ear" cues...which made coordinating musicals real fun.... .... and these were people with beautiful voices, all kinds of music theory knowledge etc...

the past 2 singers in my metal band were pretty good with timing, cadence, and phrasing though...it is funny that I have had more issues with "classically trained" singers now that I think about it

 

[Dr_Watso]

I guess it probably has to do with types of music then. Thinking about it, most of the "singers" in things I've done were also usually playing guitar or something while they sang, but the few that were purely singers I just got lucky with I guess.

I do help host an open jam once a week and have run into some stinkers there for sure, but that's not the same thing as someone doing music professionally that doesn't understand the basics of how it work. Yikes.

 

[Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX]

I guess it probably has to do with types of music then. Thinking about it, most of the "singers" in things I've done were also usually playing guitar or something while they sang, but the few that were purely singers I just got lucky with I guess.

I do help host an open jam once a week and have run into some stinkers there for sure, but that's not the same thing as someone doing music professionally that doesn't understand the basics of how it work. Yikes.

and also where the singers first learned. Having grown up in the competitive choir activity as a young kid, I experienced learning under different directors, and it was so odd to me that most directors taught rhythm stuff by rote...and spent so much time pulling their hair out when trying to coordinate things. I was always like "why doesn't everyone just count?"

our HS choir director is the same way. Great guy. Has pretty decent sounding groups, but does not teach any rhythmic stuff, and they do a lot of learning by rote. I sometimes get his kids in band, it is a shock for them, especially when learning. He always asks me: "what is the secret you use to get your groups t osound so together?" My answer is always:" no secrets...just counting"

 

[Duck Tape]

I programmed all the song tempos into my tempo advance app and took them to rehearsal.

Now it feels like cheating.

We're all different but I guess the enjoyable part of drumming in this (commercial/pop) context is holding a steady tempo and interacting with other ppl musically. Playing with a click and ignoring the other musicians just makes me feel like a useful idiot.

 

[Chris Whitten]

In another band, the issue is the Diva type singer that insists on a specific tempo so the words are not 'too slow' or 'too fast' .. but ''just right' like in Goldilocks.. it drives everyone in the band crazy - but she's an awesome singer Lol.

If she's an 'awesome singer', maybe she is right?