Silent stage age: do your drums matter anymore?

[Hollywood Jim]

I understand the need to control the on-stage sound levels and deliver a good well mixed sound to the audience.
My only concern regarding silent stage set-ups is that eventually live concert sound technicians will no longer know how to manage the sound of a live band that uses guitar amps and acoustic drums.

.

 

[bermuda]

My only concern regarding silent stage set-ups is that eventually live concert sound technicians will no longer know how to manage the sound of a live band that uses guitar amps and acoustic drums.

There are already recording engineers who've never even miked an acoustic kit. :O

 

[bermuda]

I somehow neglected to realize that I'd been doing a silent stage gig for most of the last 18 years! It's a So Cal casino, and they've always had a v-kit and D.I. boxes with no acoustic sounds on stage at all. The cymbal pads and maybe the vocals were the only real sounds. Obviously everyone was in-ear or wore phones. I didn't have an issue in terms of doing the gig with a v-kit, except that the kit was usually in a state of disrepair. I eventually stopped doing the gig altogether because of the displeasure of grappling with the kit.

I did the bandleader a favor and returned to the gig recently with the knowledge that the kit had been replaced or upgraded or something. But the kit was a bad hybrid with the original one, and the hi-hat was unusable and the cymbal temperamental. I vowed in the middle of the gig that I would NEVER EVER play that stage again.

But nothing to do with the silent stage per se.

 

[Chris Whitten]

There are already recording engineers who've never even miked an acoustic kit. :O

Many. I started coming across this from the 90's onwards.
Almost all the music in the streaming top40 has no acoustic drums in the mix, it is almost universally programmed - samples, loops, drum machine etc.

 

[Suburbankidz]

This entirely!

I'm finding small venues are going down the "we want bands, but not the noise" road. It sounds like a singer with pre-recorded backing tracks and these venues all have terrible in house systems which have limiters built in. If the money is good you grit your teeth and get through it.

The scary bit is the cost to do it. You spend all that time and money finding which gear suits you only to be told you have to spend a lot more on v-drums and amp sims etc which are obsolete in a few years time.

Still learning about all of this and I've enjoyed reading through this thread.

This small venue issue is what we're struggling with right now at one of the open mics we're playing at. They want "live music but not the big noise" and it's a sizable bar. Everything has to be run through the sound man's PA system for volume control and the result is a muddy sound and we can't really hear each other on stage. It doesn't help that the soundman is so stoned sometimes that he doesn't know what's going on. We have a two hour show there in a couple of weeks and the guitarist and bass player are bringing their own amps and I've got my smaller acoustic kit. We've observed other bands doing this and the results have been better. Some bands have also used an ekit and their own PA system. Maybe this particular soundman is on the way out and hopefully they get someone better.

I'm not sure if my comments are contributing to this thread, but you've all got me thinking considering and observing and it's all a big learning curve right now

 

[Chris Whitten]

Whatever the gig or the stage size I always try and use the same methodology.
I have the bass amp set up just in front of my hi-hat. So I can hear exactly what the bass player is doing, but not be deafened.
I try to hear as much of the other instruments as I can from their own amps or monitors. I try to have very little in my monitor.
I think bands should try and set up close to each other, even if it's a big stage, and try and self monitor, without relying on PA systems or monitor engineers.
I realise that in a club situation if the PA dominates the on stage sound it can be difficult to hear what you are all doing.

 

[Suburbankidz]

Whatever the gig or the stage size I always try and use the same methodology.
I have the bass amp set up just in front of my hi-hat. So I can hear exactly what the bass player is doing, but not be deafened.
I try to hear as much of the other instruments as I can from their own amps or monitors. I try to have very little in my monitor.
I think bands should try and set up close to each other, even if it's a big stage, and try and self monitor, without relying on PA systems or monitor engineers.
I realise that in a club situation if the PA dominates the on stage sound it can be difficult to hear what you are all doing.

Thank you Mr Whitten!

 

[River19]

Whatever the gig or the stage size I always try and use the same methodology.
I have the bass amp set up just in front of my hi-hat. So I can hear exactly what the bass player is doing, but not be deafened.
I try to hear as much of the other instruments as I can from their own amps or monitors. I try to have very little in my monitor.
I think bands should try and set up close to each other, even if it's a big stage, and try and self monitor, without relying on PA systems or monitor engineers.
I realise that in a club situation if the PA dominates the on stage sound it can be difficult to hear what you are all doing.

I always did something similar with the bass cabinet position......I always said that if I can't hear the leads and vocals I want to at least feel the bass if not hear it.......

I think a possible lost art is non-verbal communication between band members as well. My longtime bassist was our "musical director" for lack of better term and we were constantly checking in with each other via eye contact and facial expressions and given our long catalog of songs (weddings) he kept things together by signaling changes and tacets with movement of his guitar neck etc.

Ah, yes, the little things and tricks of the trade that kept us all sounding like we had our crap together.......

 

[joedrum]

Many. I started coming across this from the 90's onwards.
Almost all the music in the streaming top40 has no acoustic drums in the mix, it is almost universally programmed - samples, loops, drum machine etc.

Chris,
Not to get off track but I saw an interview you did where you said in the studio you tried to get your drums tuned perfectly while Jerry Marotta's sounded like crap but when you heard the end recorded results the opposite happened. Why was that? Thanks

 

[mikyok]

Still learning about all of this and I've enjoyed reading through this thread.

This small venue issue is what we're struggling with right now at one of the open mics we're playing at. They want "live music but not the big noise" and it's a sizable bar. Everything has to be run through the sound man's PA system for volume control and the result is a muddy sound and we can't really hear each other on stage. It doesn't help that the soundman is so stoned sometimes that he doesn't know what's going on. We have a two hour show there in a couple of weeks and the guitarist and bass player are bringing their own amps and I've got my smaller acoustic kit. We've observed other bands doing this and the results have been better. Some bands have also used an ekit and their own PA system. Maybe this particular soundman is on the way out and hopefully they get someone better.

I'm not sure if my comments are contributing to this thread, but you've all got me thinking considering and observing and it's all a big learning curve right now

You're totally contributing. You're having the same problem as a lot of us. Control freak venues that have unrealistic expectations of a band.

When I get a silent stage gig we usually get some crap from the venue in advance telling us how amazing their in house sound system is. The best one we had said it was a silent stage because, "it's someones wedding not your rock show." The same place was insisting all background music/disco was FLAC files as their sound system was that good. When we showed up if was laughably under powered and the sound quality was woeful.

I completely get massive rigs and massive bands with insane budgets can pull the silent stage off and the punters out front are none the wiser. When venues try to do this on the cheap it sounds just that and there's no energy at all behind the performance. To make it work in even the smallest venue you need an insanely expensive and powerful system.

 

[dboomer]

… To make it work in even the smallest venue you need an insanely expensive and powerful system.

Exactly. Think of it this way … a 22” bass drum head has about the same surface area as three 15” speakers. And if you are looking to amplify that you’ll need even more.

 

[Chris Whitten]

Chris,
Not to get off track but I saw an interview you did where you said in the studio you tried to get your drums tuned perfectly while Jerry Marotta's sounded like crap but when you heard the end recorded results the opposite happened. Why was that? Thanks

It's a bit of a long story and you've slightly got it backwards. I'll try and reply later.

 

[mikyok]

Exactly. Think of it this way … a 22” bass drum head has about the same surface area as three 15” speakers. And if you are looking to amplify that you’ll need even more.

The way I look at it it's like like people who buy a cheap record player and speakers and wonder why records don't sound very good but blame the record.

 

[Stickman]

I just saw an article announcing DWs new hybrid electronic/acoustic WIRELESS drumkit, where the electronics are buried in side the acoustic shells. Sounds like the best of both worlds - for only 10,000 US$!

DWe 5-Piece Drum Kit Bundle | Drum Workshop Inc.

This complete kit bundle features a DWe 5-piece shell pack, 4 cymbal pack, and 5000 series hardware pack.

www.dwdrums.com

One thing I find odd is the tom holders. Why in the world would they clamp the cymbal on the tube of the tom holder? I use omni ball holders with the cymbal stand telescoping straight up through the stand (and the omni ball). Much simpler, less adjustments, perfect alignment and balance. For 10K I'd want that at least!

But the wireless aspect is a dream come true - I have an aversion to cables. I can wrap mic cables with the best of em.. but show me a tangle of wires and I have to leave the room!

 

[Chris Whitten]

Sounds like the best of both worlds

The drums themselves are dead unless you go through a conversion process. So it's not THAT much different to a Roland look-alike shell kit, except you do get a DW drum set if you ever want to remove the electronic element.

 

[doggyd69b]

The sound on stage is separate to the sound the audience hears. The sound onstage is to inform the players and inspire them. The effect is no different from a small club to an enormous arena.

A lot of people feel that in order to have actual monitors on stage, they need to be cranked up to 11, which of course is NOT the case.
as you said, monitors are used to inform the players, so are in ears, but the effect is a little different because if you have for example, a drummer playing on an e-kit and the rest of the guys straight to the FOH, then there is really no sound on stage which can feel weird at first.. (but if your IEM mix is good that shouldn't be a problem).

What I don't understand is why would that be needed in a large venue or an arena UNLESS some of the musicians are ageing and requested it to prevent more hearing loss....

 

[doggyd69b]

BTW, if I go to a club show I don't expect to hear CD quality audio through the sound system, I expect the show to have energy and be intimate.
From friends who have seen all IEM, V-Drum shows in smaller venues they all said it felt sterile, less energy from the stage.

I have been to mid size clubs where bands did have CD quality sound.. Those bands are to this day my benchmark on how to setup a PA..
and no it was not deafening volume, it was that every single instrument and voice sounded clear and very, very well balanced.

 

[Stickman]

I have been to mid size clubs where bands did have CD quality sound.. Those bands are to this day my benchmark on how to setup a PA..
and no it was not deafening volume, it was that every single instrument and voice sounded clear and very, very well balanced.

Yes it's true .. having a great sound engineer and technology can make a world of difference. One example I ran into a long time ago - seeing Level 42 at a University hall in the 80's. The opening band had unbelievable sound quality.. (and they did their own sound). When the headliner Level 42 came out.. they were great but the sound was muddy and dull by comparison. This is one reason why I try to sound engineer my own sound.. and educate myself on sound production in general..to make sure it's the best it can possibly be out in the audience.
BTW - the sound guy in the opening act I mentioned - was the drummer!

 

[2 hit wonder]

Our bass player is pretty messed up by the end of the show and that's when he decides it's time to turn up his amp and step on the other players.
I like power and volume too, but it doesn't make it more polished.
He knows the show is almost over. The club can't make him turn down.

 

[2 hit wonder]

One thing I find odd is the tom holders. Why in the world would they clamp the cymbal on the tube of the tom holder? I use omni ball holders with the cymbal stand telescoping straight up through the stand (and the omni ball). Much simpler, less adjustments, perfect alignment and balance. For 10K I'd want that at least!l

Agreed. My floor tom is really a mounted 14" tom on an L arm attached to the crash cymbal. The crash is too close but if I boom arm it, it's not quite right either.

My left crash is attached to the hihat off a boom bracket. I like it. My splash is the same but attached to the 10" tom L arm.
The ride is on it's own stand.