Not getting distracted into getting count wrong...

[mday]

I re-started playing at about the same age as you after a very long lie down (16 to 58!) ...... So yes basically what the others have said. But also don't overthink everything.

I used to stress about playing everything how it appeared on the record, but after a while realised I could create my own interpretation. Let's face it most bands play a different arrangement live anyhow.

Also if you need to count (& I only count where I believe it will help me) I use the snare & 3 toms as a visual reminder of where we are in a 4 bar phrase.

I moved to IEM's so I could accurately hear what the rest of the band were doing. I also use a P&D seat & that helps too.

Took me time though to get to where I am now......& I'm still learning!

 

[MattRitter]

I try to learn these with the sheet music to start with

Consequently I've tended to rely almost completely on counting

Based on statements such as these that are scattered throughout your posts, I am convinced that you are simply approaching this in a way that is not helpful and not the norm. I applaud you on your effort, but the truth is...nobody learns basic rock tunes with a stack of sheet music and an ironclad determination to keep the count.

Of course, while counting, that's probably making my hearing ability even worse since I'm "listening" to that count

Exactly! That is precisely what is happening.

Counting your way through music is like driving to the store in a car with the windows painted over, using a compass and a stopwatch.

This person's analogy is brilliant. It's exactly like what you've been trying to do. Actually, what you've been trying to do is even worse because you've also added sheet music into the equation. So, I would amend Alparrot's analogy to say that you are "driving to the store in a car with the windows painted over, using a compass, a stopwatch, AND A MAP."

By the way...as a drum teacher, I absolutely work with my students on reading and counting. But again, those are skills to be used in appropriate situations. You have been unknowingly trying to use those skills in situations where they aren't necessary and aren't helpful. In fact, they're a hindrance.

If anyone else comes up with some ideas, I'm all ears!

Actually, that's the solution right there. Be "all ears."

Best of luck.

 

[SkullDrummer]

What i do, is i try not to think about the time signature, and just think about when in the song i need to hit what drums.
but that way only works if you know the song by heart.

 

[Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX]

What is the point of being "right" if the other musicians happens to drift or makes a mistake? Aren't we supposed to make music together? Which would be more noticeable to the audience, the drummer stubbornly counting and playing the part, or everyone listening carefully and adapting?

But, yes, I agree that we shall know the music and be a stable reference when needed. There's no reason to be rigid though.

(all caps are for emphasis, not me "yelling")...and I am not refuting your comments, just expanding on them....

i guess to me the "make music together" can't happen if we...aren't together.

And counting/pulse is what makes that happen. I don't deny ebb and flow, and communication, but ebb and flow is way different than two speeds against each other, or dropped rhythms, or wrong notes because of lack of awareness or lack of rehearsal. Obviously, I don't adhere to "one musician just plowing along"....but I also don't adhere to the fear of telling people they are wrong, and they need to fix it. Often times, I think this gets misconstrued as being "rigid", when it should really just be expected.

AND...in any situation, someone has to be the foundation...and being the foundation IS being "right"

RE: mistakes....those are not supposed to happen in music...at least the way I was brought up. Momentary gaffs happen, but a consistent, unaddressed error is, or at least was, unacceptable in most musical circles.... even in the loosest of jam bands.

maybe I am old, or stubborn, but I can't accept mistakes of ignorance, and will not play in situations where these are not addressed and corrected. I can't accept being in groups....even hobbiest groups...where there are going to be constant fixable mistakes that are just ignored. That is probably b/c of my upbringing around professional classical musicians and marching band stuff

again, just sort of "thinking out loud here"

 

[Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX]

Yeah, as others have said, listening is more important than counting. It doesn't work initially, but after time you get to recognise the shape of phrases and also the way they resolve. As Todd said, most music is formed into 8 bar blocks, with melodies in two to four bar phrases.
Listen and learn to recognise two and four bar phrases. Then over time you learn to recognise how phrases resolve, if you get to the end of four bars and the melody doesn't seem like it's going to resolve you know that (somewhat unusually) there has been an extra one or two bars tacked on to the phrase.
I never count arrangements in bars, I count 8 bar blocks. I know the guitar solo is 16 bars for example, so I count two times around the 8 bar chord sequence.

this made me think that I also use listening waaaay after I have learned by counting...like for songs i have been playing for years.

but I am still honestly counting all the time even then

 

[Tamboreter]

So, in my late 50's & have been taking a few lessons a month for about 3 years now.

I don't think this has been addressed, but what does your teacher suggest? Is he/she working on this with you? Secondly, since your hearing is an issue (I can relate), what are you doing so that you can hear the music better or more clearly? Thirdly, something is causing a stumbling block... a good teacher should know how to address that.

As someone else mentioned, ditch the sheet music... that may be a stumbling block. Try to consistently play the basic pattern (e.g.; bass drum on 2 & 4: snare hits on 1 & 3 -or whatever the beat is) and don't focus on playing a "verbatim" transcription of the song. Pare everything back to the basics and then build on that. Slow and steady wins the race.

 

[Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX]

A lot of interesting & good advice here folks, thank you.

Some people asked what type of music; it's mostly just about the easiest rock; e.g. Where Is My Mind (Pixies), Creep (Radiohead), She Sells Sanctuary (The Cult) etc.
I try to learn these with the sheet music to start with & then play along to the track then use a drumless track. I also try all these with/without a metronome. When I have learnt a tune well enough that I should be able to rehearse it then I'll try it with a group of musicians who're all better than me & I expect to get picked up on timing/counting errors (which I deem beneficial in that I know I need to fix something but it can be frustrating although as I've been counting, the message goes both ways at times!).

One thing on the listening; I have poor hearing & can rarely rely on hearing enough of what everyone else is doing to be sure of picking up a particular thing. This can be even worse in a jam where the acoustics are awful. Consequently I've tended to rely almost completely on counting, (with the exception being when I lose count I may just be able to hear enough to work out what it should be - can't be guaranteed so last resort!). Getting this even slightly wrong is enough to throw other musicians in rehearsal, at times. Of course, while counting, that's probably making my hearing ability even worse since I'm "listening" to that count so I get that I may need to just go with it & see what happens, (thank you for the advice).

I'll see how I get on counting just the bars or notes without division in the easier sections. If that goes OK on my own I'll see how it works in rehearsal with others.

I'm not sure to what extent I can almost completely drop the counting as although, I can set things up on my own to hear the drumless track well, it always sounds different live. Again, I may just have to try on my own & then jump in & see if it works with others.

If anyone else comes up with some ideas, I'm all ears!

can you sing along to songs you are learning? not worriyng about how your voice sounds, but using it to internalize what you are eharing?

I do this with my band kids all the time, and it helpos them develop the "listening" you are trying to achieve. After reading this post a few times, I thin I have discovered that you are actually talking about internalizing the phrase structure, cues etc....

after a few sessions of learning by count, figuring out fingerings, or getting to the right bars on marimbas and s tuff, I will then have them start singing their part. And again, it is more for inflection, figuring out ebb and flow of dynamics...it sort of gets them awat from the minutea of the black and white

and then it helps them when they are figuring something out by ear too....

I do this alot when I learn new charts myself....if I can sing the song, I can usually nail the drum part after a few reps

just a thought

 

[KJIB]

I don't think this has been addressed, but what does your teacher suggest? Is he/she working on this with you? Secondly, since your hearing is an issue (I can relate), what are you doing so that you can hear the music better or more clearly? Thirdly, something is causing a stumbling block... a good teacher should know how to address that.

As someone else mentioned, ditch the sheet music... that may be a stumbling block. Try to consistently play the basic pattern (e.g.; bass drum on 2 & 4: snare hits on 1 & 3 -or whatever the beat is) and don't focus on playing a "verbatim" transcription of the song. Pare everything back to the basics and then build on that. Slow and steady wins the race.

Teach' suggests a mix of the things here. He's aware that I tend to be perhaps overly analytical & so there's some emphasis on having some practice where the aim is to largely let go & try to just get into a tune & play along without knowing it but there's also emphasis on playing stuff properly because otherwise playing with other people just isn't going to last long.

Hearing; for practice today (on my own) I tried headphones to hear the recorded music better but then I found I couldn't hear my own playing well enough to gauge some aspects. So then I ran the music through a PA & played it louder than in the past so the (acoustic) drums are not overwhelming it. Hearing the music better was helpful for practice. I probably can't do that much in rehearsal with others to improve the situation & at a jam I have no control over it so we kinda need to be spot on with what we're playing which has worked (mostly) OK, so far.

Counting; I tried not worrying about counting much today too with several tunes but I didn't ditch it completely (because I'm playing to recorded music in this part of my practice & need to play the correct number of bars in each phrase). I found that although I wasn't trying to count notes/divisions (just bars), the counting was still happening but I felt more relaxed, it was more in the background, the "voice" in my head was "quieter" & it seemed to be OK. I'd say this is an improvement, (realising that, on simpler familiar stuff at least, I'm sort of counting anyway without concentrating on doing so).

Sheet music; I use the sheet music, (if I can find it), to try & learn a new tune properly to begin with to help me learn the structure of the song, the fills etc. & then I do ditch the sheet music & play without it (but it may take me weeks, depending on the tune to no longer need it). Sometimes I simplify things a lot in order to cut the learn time down to be able to play with others (so they don't get frustrated with the duration). Typically I'll try to learn 2 out of 3 tunes largely to the sheet music & 1 I may simplify completely. Of those I'm aiming to learn completely, I sometime start by simplifying the hard parts (so I can learn the crux of it) then I slowly learn the trickier bits & add them in when I can. Some tunes I'm still adding bits to that I couldn't do a few years ago now, (but that's part of the purpose, to keep learning even if I am agonisingly slow at it).

 

[KJIB]

can you sing along to songs you are learning? not worriyng about how your voice sounds, but using it to internalize what you are eharing?

I do this with my band kids all the time, and it helpos them develop the "listening" you are trying to achieve. After reading this post a few times, I thin I have discovered that you are actually talking about internalizing the phrase structure, cues etc....

after a few sessions of learning by count, figuring out fingerings, or getting to the right bars on marimbas and s tuff, I will then have them start singing their part. And again, it is more for inflection, figuring out ebb and flow of dynamics...it sort of gets them awat from the minutea of the black and white

and then it helps them when they are figuring something out by ear too....

I do this alot when I learn new charts myself....if I can sing the song, I can usually nail the drum part after a few reps

just a thought

Singing along; no, I've not been able to sing along reliably! But I have tried to learn vocals in a few of the tunes & even put the words into boxes where each bar is to see if I could sing & somehow use that like a count. Perhaps that's possible but I didn't get it to work. My timing went totally out the window & it felt like I'm just not good enough on any tune to be able to drum and sing at the same time. It was useful for picking up when the singer comes in at the wrong time on those tunes & it also helped having learnt what bar some words fall in to check my count & occasionally resync where I'd got it wrong.

I like the idea & will muse over how I might make it help me & I get that even just knowing where the words fall can be a great help.

 

[Square]

can you sing along to songs you are learning? not worriyng about how your voice sounds, but using it to internalize what you are eharing?

I do this with my band kids all the time, and it helpos them develop the "listening" you are trying to achieve. After reading this post a few times, I thin I have discovered that you are actually talking about internalizing the phrase structure, cues etc....

after a few sessions of learning by count, figuring out fingerings, or getting to the right bars on marimbas and s tuff, I will then have them start singing their part. And again, it is more for inflection, figuring out ebb and flow of dynamics...it sort of gets them awat from the minutea of the black and white

and then it helps them when they are figuring something out by ear too....

I do this alot when I learn new charts myself....if I can sing the song, I can usually nail the drum part after a few reps

just a thought

Clarification needed:

Are you saying sing the song as in sing the vocals, or as in sing/scat the drum parts?

Thnx

 

[MattRitter]

Sheet music; I use the sheet music, (if I can find it), to try & learn a new tune properly to begin with to help me learn the structure of the song, the fills etc.

But I have tried to learn vocals in a few of the tunes & even put the words into boxes where each bar is to see if I could sing & somehow use that like a count.

All of this is admirable and even clever. However, it is overcomplicated and misses the mark in terms of how to begin learning these types of songs.

Try something as an experiment.

Take one of the songs, and without counting or reading sheet music or anything like that, just listen to it. Listen in the same way that you listened before ever taking up the drums. As the verse ends and the chorus begins, tap your hand on your leg one time right on the first beat of the chorus. If you miss it for some reason, try it again. I suspect that after a few tries at most, you'll be able to do this just from instinct.

Once you can do that, now do a similar thing on the actual drumset. Play a very basic rock beat along with the song, and when that moment comes around (the beginning of the chorus), instead of tapping your leg, hit the crash cymbal. Again, I suspect you'll correctly do this after just a few tries.

Now you're on your way to learning these songs "properly" (to use your word).

I honestly don't mean to be dismissive of your past or current efforts, but I have seen countless students in your situation before, so I have a pretty good sense of what's going on here. With all the sheet music and the counting, you have turned rock 'n' roll drumming into some sort of puzzle. Consequently, you're missing the forest for the trees (to use an already overused phrase). Believe it or not, THAT is what your fellow musicians are negatively reacting to.

With all due respect to your teacher, this could certainly be the result of well-intentioned but misguided instruction. It reminds me of a student who came to see me after substantial time with another teacher. The student had a big, thick binder filled with all of her "assignments." These "assignments" consisted of linear grooves and complicated fills with a bunch of counts and other markings written all over the place.

When I saw this, I asked the student to momentarily set aside her binder and just play me a drum beat for a few minutes with occasional fills and crashes. She couldn't do it. At that point, I told her to put the binder away somewhere until some future day when we would refer to it again. That day never came.

 

[Square]

All of this is admirable and even clever. However, it is overcomplicated and misses the mark in terms of how to begin learning these types of songs.

Try something as an experiment.

Take one of the songs, and without counting or reading sheet music or anything like that, just listen to it. Listen in the same way that you listened before ever taking up the drums. As the verse ends and the chorus begins, tap your hand on your leg one time right on the first beat of the chorus. If you miss it for some reason, try it again. I suspect that after a few tries at most, you'll be able to do this just from instinct.

Once you can do that, now do a similar thing on the actual drumset. Play a very basic rock beat along with the song, and when that moment comes around (the beginning of the chorus), instead of tapping your leg, hit the crash cymbal. Again, I suspect you'll correctly do this after just a few tries.

Now you're on your way to learning these songs "properly" (to use your word).

I honestly don't mean to be dismissive of your past or current efforts, but I have seen countless students in your situation before, so I have a pretty good sense of what's going on here. With all the sheet music and the counting, you have turned rock 'n' roll drumming into some sort of puzzle. Consequently, you're missing the forest for the trees (to use an already overused phrase). Believe it or not, THAT is what your fellow musicians are negatively reacting to.

With all due respect to your teacher, this could certainly be the result of well-intentioned but misguided instruction. It reminds me of a student who came to see me after substantial time with another teacher. The student had a big, thick binder filled with all of her "assignments." These "assignments" consisted of linear grooves and complicated fills with a bunch of counts and other markings written all over the place.

When I saw this, I asked the student to momentarily set aside her binder and just play me a drum beat for a few minutes with occasional fills and crashes. She couldn't do it. At that point, I told her to put the binder away somewhere until some future day when we would refer to it again. That day never came.

This is largely the path my instructor has taken with me to break my propensity for counting.

I see good results though “I have miles to go before I sleep”

 

[Hollywood Jim]

Take one of the songs, and without counting or reading sheet music or anything like that, just listen to it. Listen in the same way that you listened before ever taking up the drums. As the verse ends and the chorus begins, tap your hand on your leg one time right on the first beat of the chorus. If you miss it for some reason, try it again. I suspect that after a few tries at most, you'll be able to do this just from instinct.

Once you can do that, now do a similar thing on the actual drumset. Play a very basic rock beat along with the song, and when that moment comes around (the beginning of the chorus), instead of tapping your leg, hit the crash cymbal. Again, I suspect you'll correctly do this after just a few tries.

Now you're on your way to learning these songs "properly" (to use your word).

I have learned over the many years of being in bands that the manner in which musicians play their instruments is directly related to how they hear and listen to music. Before someone begins to learn to play a musical instrument they should learn to listen to music in a very analytical and detailed manner.

I remember many times in rehearsals finding a fellow musician playing a particular part of a song totally wrong. Only to discover that that was what they heard when they listened to the song. People who listen to music as background noise and do not concentrate on what is really going on in a song, miss a lot of important details of the song. Although it is ok if someone wants to simply enjoy the song and not analyze it.

.

 

[Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX]

Singing along; no, I've not been able to sing along reliably! But I have tried to learn vocals in a few of the tunes & even put the words into boxes where each bar is to see if I could sing & somehow use that like a count. Perhaps that's possible but I didn't get it to work. My timing went totally out the window & it felt like I'm just not good enough on any tune to be able to drum and sing at the same time. It was useful for picking up when the singer comes in at the wrong time on those tunes & it also helped having learnt what bar some words fall in to check my count & occasionally resync where I'd got it wrong.

I like the idea & will muse over how I might make it help me & I get that even just knowing where the words fall can be a great help.

I am not thinking of the words, but you being able to vocalize the instrumental parts themselves. Like the main melodic ideas that the instruments set up...

sort of like vocalizing the main riff of Smoke On The Water by going:

dun, dun ,duuuun, dut dut duh duuuuunn
dun, dun. duuuun
duh duuuun

 

[Skrivarna]

(all caps are for emphasis, not me "yelling")...and I am not refuting your comments, just expanding on them....

i guess to me the "make music together" can't happen if we...aren't together.

And counting/pulse is what makes that happen. I don't deny ebb and flow, and communication, but ebb and flow is way different than two speeds against each other, or dropped rhythms, or wrong notes because of lack of awareness or lack of rehearsal. Obviously, I don't adhere to "one musician just plowing along"....but I also don't adhere to the fear of telling people they are wrong, and they need to fix it. Often times, I think this gets misconstrued as being "rigid", when it should really just be expected.

AND...in any situation, someone has to be the foundation...and being the foundation IS being "right"

RE: mistakes....those are not supposed to happen in music...at least the way I was brought up. Momentary gaffs happen, but a consistent, unaddressed error is, or at least was, unacceptable in most musical circles.... even in the loosest of jam bands.

maybe I am old, or stubborn, but I can't accept mistakes of ignorance, and will not play in situations where these are not addressed and corrected. I can't accept being in groups....even hobbiest groups...where there are going to be constant fixable mistakes that are just ignored. That is probably b/c of my upbringing around professional classical musicians and marching band stuff

again, just sort of "thinking out loud here"

OK, I assume we are just playing in completely different situations then.

Sure, there is a place for being rigid and never accept any improvisation, like when there is a backing track or anything else triggering via a sequence, or when playing with other musicians that are very locked to their written arrangements (in most cases that would be the horns, that for some reason refuses to listen for cues and just count).

But, in other cases, if the guitarist needs eight more bars to reach the climax in a solo, or the singer has a good time trading choruses with the audience, shouldn't that be accepted? Or if someone happens to do a mistake at a gig, shouldn't the rest of us do our best to cover up for them?

Or what about jazz based music in general?

For me, that is one of the great things about playing with other professionals, listening and finding our way through the music together.
Again, I'm not advocating ignoring mistakes, but just accepting that sometimes sh#t happens and that we can still fix it in the moment and the audience may never notice.

Many of the gigs I do would never work only relying on notation, written form and counting.

 

[Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX]

OK, I assume we are just playing in completely different situations then.

Sure, there is a place for being rigid and never accept any improvisation, like when there is a backing track or anything else triggering via a sequence, or when playing with other musicians that are very locked to their written arrangements (in most cases that would be the horns, that for some reason refuses to listen for cues and just count).

But, in other cases, if the guitarist needs eight more bars to reach the climax in a solo, or the singer has a good time trading choruses with the audience, shouldn't that be accepted? Or if someone happens to do a mistake at a gig, shouldn't the rest of us do our best to cover up for them?

Or what about jazz based music in general?

For me, that is one of the great things about playing with other professionals, listening and finding our way through the music together.
Again, I'm not advocating ignoring mistakes, but just accepting that sometimes sh#t happens and that we can still fix it in the moment and the audience may never notice.

Many of the gigs I do would never work only relying on notation, written form and counting.

what you are refering to - at least in my mind - is adjusting for phrase changes, which does involve active listening and reaction, but is also grounded in counting - again, at least for me - to keep the whole thing together during that in the moment interaction.

and counting/keeping count, is what recovers mistakes, at least for me, and the bands I play in, because mistakes are usually the result of not counting

we are on the same page for sure...I m not refuting waht you are saying...and we are playing in the same situations, it is that we are conceptualizing them differently

 

[Tamboreter]

With all due respect to your teacher, this could certainly be the result of well-intentioned but misguided instruction. It reminds me of a student who came to see me after substantial time with another teacher. The student had a big, thick binder filled with all of her "assignments." These "assignments" consisted of linear grooves and complicated fills with a bunch of counts and other markings written all over the place.

I agree with Matt, here... while being respectful of the instruction you've received at this point, it may very well be time to find a new teacher that can successfully rectify the issues you are experiencing. Someone who can also coach you through the things you've posted about, for example:

Distraction
Overly analytical
Worrying
"Timing is out the window"
"Takes weeks to learn basic songs"

@KJIB I would be curious to know if you had any prior musical training before your drum lessons?
Did you start on snare drum, learning rudiments or just drumset? (I don't want to start a war with that comment, lol )

I would be inclined to use a book like Tommy Igoe's Groove Essentials 1.0 to learn the basic rock patterns that would work for many, many songs. Two bar patterns are transcribed, and used to play along with full length recorded tunes. I consider Tommy's books as essential and I have benefited greatly from using them. When I forced myself to learn songs in this manner, I was liberated from being tethered to sheet music.

 

[KJIB]

I had no previous music training at all.
I actually started on a Nintendo toy that we got for the kids, (came with a plastic guitar, "drumkit" & microphone). I played it with the kids. One of the kids fancied playing drums, we got her lessons & got a very basic e-kit. I started "playing" it using a thing called Melodics, (like a computer game) which didn't really teach me much at all so then I got proper lessons & here we are.

I will have to check that Tommy Igoe book.