Issues with faster rolls

Tony_laz said:
...I'm finding it particularly difficult to go from 32nd note double strokes down to 16th double strokes smoothly. I always seem to be late going down into the 16th's.
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I have the same problem going from 32nd doubles to 16th singles. No matter how quickly I can play that transition, it always sounds a bit lumpy, for the reason you described.

The only thing that works for me is to drop a note.

Here's an example of a nine stroke roll in 32nd's leading into 16th singles. What I'm after is the sound of A, but B and C are the only versions that work. At quick tempo, nobody but me (and maybe some drummers) can hear the difference.9strokebutchered.jpg
 
TMe said:
I have the same problem going from 32nd doubles to 16th singles. No matter how quickly I can play that transition, it always sounds a bit lumpy, for the reason you described.

The only thing that works for me is to drop a note.

Here's an example of a nine stroke roll in 32nd's leading into 16th singles. What I'm after is the sound of A, but B and C are the only versions that work. At quick tempo, nobody but me (and maybe some drummers) can hear the difference.View attachment 87683
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Just keep cycling doubles into singles into doubles into singles etc. Eventually it will smooth itself out. As always, start slow and watch your hands. If the transition has the same hiccup each time you should be able to see it.
 
Push pull stroke said:
Great chops, although I find I’m a little more comfortable with my elbows slightly farther out than that. Also, one of my favorite exercises is putting a snare reso head over a pillow and playing rudiments. Try it
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Oh ya. I have a moongel pad that works great as well. Or a couch cushion.

Also. Play with your elbows, hands, arms however works for YOU. No 2 people are built the same. I have plenty of injuries from my younger years and my wrists and hands are pretty messed up from sports, skateboarding, falling, snowboarding and other injuries so I adjust for me.

Same as some people sit high, some sit low, some like their palms more down, some like more of a french style grip. It is all correct as long as there is no pain. Things like gravity, rebound, and control should be the same for everyone though.

I find it funny that I only made this video a year ago and how much cleaner, faster and more consistent I am. this makes me cringe a bit lol.
 
Well no way in hell you’re going to play fast playing slow- yeah you slowly work out the motor pattern but you got to play faster to ever reach speed - part of it biological the way humans learn- few master squat right out the box . You have to cognitively learn something then motor patterns are integrated with cerebellum and other areas to do these basically on autopilot-just like gait and how we walk , riding a bicycle, etc. You keep pushing and it takes time then sudddenly something difficult gets easier - no matter what. I think what people are telling you is take your time , be patient and don’t be discouraged, take it slow but push it to reach speed, and there is no shortcuts. So yeah lots of suggestions but to all is dedication and time spent to have success. My suggestion add triplets to singles and doubles - i found the transition between singles snd doubles gets easier ( for some freaky reason) and you’ll “ stutter” shifting to triplets. I’m about 80-90% non-stutter now going to triplets, and no problems going fluidly singles and doubles any tempo. I’m curious if that works for other people or just my brain. Now that’s the motor integration part but to be a real musician you have to have the higher cognitive understanding of music and understand the language of music. So a musician can have chops but having chops doesn’t make you a musician. Yeah I’m at the beach with my wife-
Just had 22 oz ribeye cooked to perfection (I didn’t think I could eat all of it- I did) and “several “ martinis , so I’m feeling all philosophical- ie full of beef. I have faith he’ll get faster after this thread .
 
MrInsanePolack said:
Just keep cycling doubles into singles into doubles into singles etc. Eventually it will smooth itself out.
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I've heard a few Soca drummers and a few African drummers who can pull that off at quick tempos, but that's about it. Almost everything else I've heard employs some sort of gap at the transition. What music should I be listening for to hear this done well, or is it more of a practice pad thing for most drummers? I love that sound, but I've never been able to play it without a bit of a cheat.
 
I’ve watched Joe Morello play singles and doubles transitions seamlessly any tempo. It’s easier faster - I find slower I have to count to keep that spacing right . It’s all singles in pattern the doubles and triples is just one hand doing the singles for two or three strokes. You can play a double or triplet pattern that has pauses so you hear the pattern but you can do that with one hand rather than shifting hands. Listen to Joe it sounds like simple singles but he’s doing it by alternating doubles or triplets between hands - it’s metronomic. Joe can play what sounds like continuous singles just he distributes it to more strokes with one hand before switching. You have to see his hands to realize it. It’s really a metronomic exercise whereas you do the same to create a doubles or triplet pattern by putting a space so you hear it. The pause we produce is in moving to the alternate hand- Joe does so no pause-it sounds like continuous singles.
 
GetAgrippa said:
I’ve watched Joe Morello play singles and doubles transitions seamlessly any tempo.
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Are you describing using a pattern like this, so the left hand has more time to set up for the doubles?

| LRLR LRLR LRLR LRRR | LLRR LLRR LLRR LLRR |
 
TMe said:
Are you describing using a pattern like this, so the left hand has more time to set up for the doubles?

| LRLR LRLR LRLR LRRR | LLRR LLRR LLRR LLRR |
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I'm not sure how he did it-now I can't even find the video that "I thought" he did so-now I'm thinking it was someone else so looking "else-where". If that comes up empty I don't know about Agrippa. But someone must have been doing it else I wouldn't be trying so hard to emulate it??
 
TMe said:
I've heard a few Soca drummers and a few African drummers who can pull that off at quick tempos, but that's about it. Almost everything else I've heard employs some sort of gap at the transition. What music should I be listening for to hear this done well, or is it more of a practice pad thing for most drummers? I love that sound, but I've never been able to play it without a bit of a cheat.
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Going from doubles to singles and back -- it's not really a thing that shows up in music. It's about controlling your hand technique that your hands "switch" from singles to double without hesitation. Obviously, the transition is going to be the most problematic moment, because that's when your hands have to adjust to the new sticking. But, it can definitely be done! Practice on a pad, at a medium tempo, where the transition is comfortable and smooth, and put in many, many consecutive minutes. Practice doubles off the left into singles off the left, and also doubles off the right into singles off the right. Here's another two drills to work on that will help (keep time with your left foot when practicing)

|: RRLL RRLL RRLL RRLL |
| RLLR RLLR RLLR RLLR |
| LLRR LLRR LLRR LLRR |
| LRRL LRRL LRRL LRRL :|

|: RRLL RRLL RRLL RRLL | RLRL RLRL RLRL RLRL |
| RLLR RLLR RLLR RLLR | LRLR LRLR LRLR LRLR |
| LLRR LLRR LLRR LLRR | LRLR LRLR LRLR LRLR |
| LRRL LRRL LRRL LRRL | RLRL RLRL RLRL RLRL :|
 
Yes I call it a stutter-especially going from single or doubles to triplets-I stumble every time. It's the transition. Fast singles and doubles are an easier transition cause the pause is shorter-slow it down and the transition is much harder for me. And going to triplets I my have my most pronounced stutter-but it's improving-especially faster tempos.
 
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I agree. I practice doubles almost every day, but I don't rip doubles around the kit for lengths of time usually. The old time I'll do some but doubles are learnt for control, and because they are used EVERYWHERE without thinking of them. RllRllRllRll llRllRllRllR things like that. or paraiddles rlrr lrll I see doubles there. inverted diddles rllr lrrl , look. doubles... linear stuff, RllK llRk more doubles. groups of 5, rlrll rlrll doubles. I use them all over my playing, but not in rrllrrllrrllrrll. if you use them in 6 stroke rolls, RllrrL RllrrL you are doing some together. or paradiddle diddles. rlrrll rlrrll rlrrll.

It builds muscle memory that translates to many new things.
 
If it's transitions I'd work on it the same way, play it clean switching back and forth and speed it up when you get it.

One thing I do is crank up the sub division on the metronome. Rather than 1/4 notes, put them at 1/8 or 16th notes. that way ever hit gets a "beep" and you can find out if your rushing/dragging or going off time. I'd start REALLY slow doing that and work my way up to where it starts to get weird on the transitions and hold it there.

Many of the apps can go from 16th notes to 1/8 or 16 triplets as well. It works great for transitions like that. or keep it in one and work on going from one rudiment to the next. I often practice to a click switching from one rudiment to the next. It is VERY uncommon in drumming to play a rudiment over and over. We practice them that way to build muscle memory and speed, but we also need to practice changing from one to another.
 
Practice singles & doubles with varying metronome speeds. Whole notes to quarter to sixteenths. Start with one measure per each, then vary, eventually going 16ths for 4 measures.
 
Ok, well, I Have to weigh in.

My advice: don't take some of the feedback here too seriously. And - keep doing what you are doing.

For the amount of time you have played, you are Way ahead of most. You are doing fine.

The answer is what you have already heard: just log Lots of time, slow tempo to fast. Chip at it. Daily. Slow to fast. It will get as strong as you want it to get.

You are doing great.
 
If I could suggest a mental shift...Aim for control, not speed. Speed is the child of control. Control to me is mentally easier to tackle than speed, and it's really the way to do it IMO. Once you get good control, speed just happens. Then you can start concentrating on speed, but control is definitely first.
 
Tony_laz said:
I'm finding it difficult to exit some of these faster rolls...
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I recently took another look at Gene Krupa's drum method. He suggests starting with a five stroke roll and playing the last double-stroke as though it's a ruff or drag leading into the tap. Then try doing the same thing with other rolls, always phrasing them so the last double-stroke is a ruff that sets up the following accent.

I find my rolls sound better when I do that, but it's difficult to maintain enough presence of mind, especially when playing with other people.
 
What do your ears tell you? Repetitive execution from singles to doubles to paradiddles has a sound. Some force a difference between each and others, like Tony Williams, strived for consistency to make the whole thing sound like one continuous roll. In either case it takes repetition over and over and over ...err, and over (ad infinitum), to develop the sound you are looking for. Speed is irrelevant. You can play a beautiful wide open roll at 120 bpm and it can be moving. Listen with your ears to what you want this to sound like. That gets you the chops and a unique feel unto yourself.
 
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