K vs A

In the early 80's I had mostly A's. At the time they were easier to find in the shops and Paiste were more expensive.
I was doing gigs and studio work. I was never in love with the A's they just filled a function. Then I signed an endorsement with Zildjian and the artist rep brought a bag of K's to the studio with a strong recommendation I switch to them. Well I never looked back. They sounded great to me and recorded much better than the A's.
I played some long tours on a very loud stage and used K's (especially Dark K's) the whole time.
 
Back when I played Zildjian I kept a set of K. Cons and a set of the redesigned As. Now that I've switched to Paiste I have a set of the Masters for darker things and a set of Modern Essentials for the brighter things. It's a strategy that's worked for me.

But I mean, OTOH, I don't hear THAT much difference between the standard Zildjian K and the regular As. In order to feel like I was getting that sort of spread, I needed to do K Cons.
 
don't let anyone


kid ya even with all their Issues
Zildjian knows how to make cymbals,.
Even when I try to kid ya ; )

reverb.com

Zildjian 20" K Series Crash/Ride Cymbal | Reverb

Shop New & Used Zildjian 20" K Crash Ride on Reverb.com
reverb.com reverb.com
that's a buyable 20 at 2062g.
AK's most if not all are Expensive---makes you want to go either whole hog into old Ks or passive into handmade Turkish makes (Bosphor.cough) at 1/2 price used of a new AK.

The Price is steep for a New or used AK.
Hard to steal

(by AK I mean Avedis K distinct from pre-78 Turkish K)
 
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They're both good and versatile and you can't go wrong with either one, no matter the genre.

I do slightly prefer A's (love New Beats and Medium Rides) but a 17" K Dark Thin is something special as well.

I don't like the Customs as much on both sides.
 
I think A and K cymbals both have good ones and bad ones even within the same size and weights. I currently have 17" A thin, 17" K custom dark, and 18" K dark crashes, 14"new beats and 15" rock hats {hollow logo} That's all the zildjians I have now. I don't have any zildjian rides I like the 18 K crash for about everything I play, it says dark on it but it's pretty bright, for a dark anyway. I use the 17" K custom with my country band but I use the 17" A for my classic rock band. I've been using A hats since around 1980 15" rock and 14" new beats. I had a 16" A med thin for around 20 yr it cracked replaced it with a beautiful hand hammered Sabian 16" which I just recently traded away and had another 16" A thin for a while but sold it even though I liked it a lot to raise money for other cymbals. I've had a 60s 20" A ride for many yr traded it for a Beta 52 kick mic. It was med heavy imo and a great all around ride with a beautiful bell, I just got tired of it. For a short time I had a K ride 20" and K hybrid 20" the hybrid was too high pitched and K ride was a nice traditional middle of the road ride, probably too heavy for jazz but good for most music, it was very similar to my 60s 20" A ride. Judging from what I've listened to in stores I prefer K cymbals. A lot of A cymbals are nice especially the thinner ones but it seems there are more A cymbals that just sound bad, than there are bad Ks. I really need to hear them in person because it seem like most cymbals sound just ok or bad no mater what brand. I always play them when I go into my local store and most of them I just don't like.
 
I love the sound of K's. But they don't cut through loud bands on stage. I'm talking unmiced. A's cut through much better.
When I start playing in lower volume bands I'll probably get some K's.


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Hollywood Jim said:
I love the sound of K's. But they don't cut through loud bands on stage. I'm talking unmiced.


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Like I said, I spent three years on the road playing very loud on huge stages. The K's sounded great and I would NEVER have cymbals in my monitors. Generally no one likes loud cymbals - the rest of the band or the sound crew. In popular music cymbals are the icing on the cake, you can barely hear them on record mixes. It's all about kick, snare and hi-hat.
 
Neal Pert said:
I don't hear THAT much difference between the standard Zildjian K and the regular As. In order to feel like I was getting that sort of spread, I needed to do K Cons.
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I hear a big difference, but also K Cons are very different again. So yes, the difference in tone between A's and K Cons is very obvious, but to me the difference between A's and K's is obvious too.
 
Chris Whitten said:
I hear a big difference, but also K Cons are very different again. So yes, the difference in tone between A's and K Cons is very obvious, but to me the difference between A's and K's is obvious too.
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I would agree that there's an obvious difference, sure. I think it comes down to a personal question of whether the sonic gap between, say, an A Thin crash and a standard K Dark crash made it worth owning both. For me, it didn't, but I'm a person who tends to keep his cymbal collection around 10-15 cymbals. I don't like having a lot of stuff around, and I want everything to have significant justification for keeping it. At this point no one I've played or recorded for has had any complaints with either setup.

But sure, if I used Zildjian I wouldn't mind having a set of As, a set of K Sweets, a set of K Cons, and maybe even sets of Avedis or Keropes. Now that I use Paiste, I've certainly considered whether 2002s, Signatures, Traditionals, and Dark Energys would be justified. But at this point, what I've got covers all the bases for me.
 
I never advocated owning similar cymbals in the A and K lines. I said I thought K's were mostly better and better suited to gigging and recording.
Once I started using K's I never looked at an A again.
 
Chris Whitten said:
A's are generally much louder and harder sounding. In some circumstances that is absolutely wrong. Both live and studio engineers detest loud cymbals.
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*much louder*? Cymbal thickness and size has far more bearing on loudness than line. You ever listen to your guitarist dialling in their tone, spending what seems like hours every rehearsal/gig tweaking their amp settings, to you you can barely hear a difference but to them its like everything? That's kind of how it is with A's and K's. You have biases that they're drastically different cymbals.....but are they? If I used my SPL meter between a K and an A, I will literally bet you money that there's hardly going to be a dB difference (I actually have an SPL meter, but I don't own any K's to test against my A's).

And as far as live and studio engineers detesting loud cymbals, however did decades of engineers cope when A's were like the *only* cymbal that everybody used? Want loud? Try Paiste Rudes or Z Customs.
 
Seafroggys said:
Cymbal thickness and size has far more bearing on loudness than line.
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don't forget Cups.. their shape height width other things..
The Radiator of la Cymbal
 
Seafroggys said:
*much louder*? Cymbal thickness and size has far more bearing on loudness than line. You ever listen to your guitarist dialling in their tone, spending what seems like hours every rehearsal/gig tweaking their amp settings, to you you can barely hear a difference but to them its like everything? That's kind of how it is with A's and K's. You have biases that they're drastically different cymbals.....but are they? If I used my SPL meter between a K and an A, I will literally bet you money that there's hardly going to be a dB difference (I actually have an SPL meter, but I don't own any K's to test against my A's).

And as far as live and studio engineers detesting loud cymbals, however did decades of engineers cope when A's were like the *only* cymbal that everybody used? Want loud? Try Paiste Rudes or Z Customs.
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Ugh....
Engineers coped because drummers played a lot quieter. The older A's were often thinner and less harsh sounding too. A's evolved in the 1970's to cope with bashing drummer's playing on loud stages (pre- live sound and effective monitoring). Modern K's only emerged in the mid-1980's.
Post 70's A's are thicker than K's and tend to be heavier, the design of the cymbal is stiffer and the darkness of K's reduces their harsh projection into microphones.
You can theorise ALL you like, but it is very widely accepted in the drumming community that A Zildjian's are both louder and brighter than the K line.
 
Hollywood Jim said:
I love the sound of K's. But they don't cut through loud bands on stage. I'm talking unmiced. A's cut through much better.
When I start playing in lower volume bands I'll probably get some K's.


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My 18" K dark seems like it cuts good but the 17K custom does not. My K dark might be a little brighter than average it sounds kind of bright to me.
 
I'm an audio engineer. I went to school for audio engineering. I've never met an engineer who thought A's were "too loud."

You're also putting words in my mouth. At no point was I talking about the tone or brightness. Merely volume.
 
Seafroggys said:
I'm an audio engineer. I went to school for audio engineering. I've never met an engineer who thought A's were "too loud."
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yeah, i have never heard that either....where did you go to school for audio engineering?

I have had some engineers ask that I use smaller diameter cymbals in the studio, but never a specific line or company
 
I started out using A Customs when I returned to drumming six years ago. Bought a box set of K Dark Thins a couple of years later and fell in love with them.

The K Sweet line has been good for me as well. Super versatile.

For some reason the 17" and 19" K cymbals (Dark and Sweet) are standouts. I have the 17 and 19 inch K Sweets but only the 19" Dark Thin. Keeping an eye out for the 17" K Dark Thin.

Edit: Just found the 17" Dark Thin on eBay for a price that doesn't seem outrageous. It should be here in one week.
 
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Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX said:
I have had some engineers ask that I use smaller diameter cymbals in the studio, but never a specific line or company
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It's not about a specific line. If you talk to engineers they hate loud cymbals. A Zildjians were modified in the 1970's to compete with louder and louder stages. If you look at the top studio drummers they are all using thinner, often darker cymbals. If you read the thoughts of studio drummers online and recording engineers they ALWAYS recommend lower volume cymbals. ALL the brands make them - Sabian HHX, Istanbul Agop, Paiste 602....and K Zildjian.
 
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Seafroggys said:
You're also putting words in my mouth. At no point was I talking about the tone or brightness. Merely volume.
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Tone completely impacts our perceptions. Brighter snares are more projecting than darker, softer sounding snares. That's why people perceive metal shell snares as 'louder' than wood snares. I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm trying to explain in detail why A Zildjians are not the best choice for hard hitting drummers and why not many studio drummers use them.
 
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