Moeller technique do you really need to master it?

Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX said:
I did this as well for the early part of my career, but then my OCD and the need to have consistent grip for non-drum set playing forced me to turn my right over to American grip. It also forced me to rethink my drum/cymbal set up on the kit, which also fixed many other ergonomic problems that I was having. Moving my ride to a place where I could play it American grip fixed some back/posture issues that I was having. It allowed to have less wasted movement and muscle usage.

I alos have WAAAYYY more control over timbre, speed and and patterns with American on the ride
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Yes I understand. If I deleted my second rack tom and moved my ride to where that second tom is, then I could stay with American grip on the ride.
And I do this sometimes when I want only one rack tom. But usually my ride is just above my floor tom.

.
 
MG1127 said:
This "technique" should in no way be credited to any single person.

Any human being with arms and hands that plays drums long enough will develop this movement.

Stop over thinking it

Stop overthinking "technique"

Play music
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These techniques are not coming naturally for me, I think it's a good theoretical update, just to stop and to learn it correctly.

Everything is DIY for me, it takes me much longer to learn new things, it's ok.
 
Hollywood Jim said:
Yes I understand. If I deleted my second rack tom and moved my ride to where that second tom is, then I could stay with American grip on the ride.
And I do this sometimes when I want only one rack tom. But usually my ride is just above my floor tom.

.
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yep...my ride was "over the bass" for a while, but I also like the tom there, so now my ride is up hanging over the tom "Nicko McBrain style", which still allows me to use American grip because of how high up I sit
 
I really like my ride more in front of me on left beside my hats (it's close and intimate like a painting canvas), but I have it on right (trying to be a traditionalist) . I think I tire of keep changing my technique, where I place things, snare height, seat height. I've changed everything up the last few years. I'm lower now seat wise-my knees are bent though properly-I must have been really high. I raised my snare height-a bit too much at first so I've lowered it a little and snare tilted towards me slightly. I raised it so high I kept hitting the rim sometimes. Trying to eliminate sympathetic buzz is my nemesis. A tight membrane even if none are at same pitch still produce enough broad frequencies it still activates a nearby membrane to buzz (I can hit my toms and feel my snare head vibrate with my hands). So I like my toms far away from snare-which makes me reach to much I'm discovering if toms set up traditionally in front of me.
I just set them up that way when I put the black dots on but had them to far away (next day back hurt) and I still couldn't get rid of buzz. What I had been doing is just move my two toms to right (away from snare) and moved ride in front. It actually works well-no buzz and I usually do single handed accents on toms with my other hand on snare with fills-and even if both hands I don't have to reach over my kick. It's mainly the 10 in tom that buzzes the snare-the 13 in is not as bad which is odd since it's a 13 in snare. The reason I set it up Purdie style because the 10 in in front of snare buzzed more. I think there is always just a slight minimal buzz-I guess the reason why videos play toms snares on and off LOL. Anyways screw it -I'm going to move my ride back to non-traditional position and just go with what works for me. Seems I've been fighting myself trying to be traditionalist-even fooled with traditional grip (it is what I initially played) a bit. I'm just not traditional I guess so I want to focus on outcomes rather than how I do it.
 
GetAgrippa said:
I really like my ride more in front of me on left beside my hats (it's close and intimate like a painting canvas), but I have it on right (trying to be a traditionalist) . I think I tire of keep changing my technique, where I place things, snare height, seat height. I've changed everything up the last few years. I'm lower now seat wise-my knees are bent though properly-I must have been really high. I raised my snare height-a bit too much at first so I've lowered it a little and snare tilted towards me slightly. I raised it so high I kept hitting the rim sometimes. Trying to eliminate sympathetic buzz is my nemesis. A tight membrane even if none are at same pitch still produce enough broad frequencies it still activates a nearby membrane to buzz (I can hit my toms and feel my snare head vibrate with my hands). So I like my toms far away from snare-which makes me reach to much I'm discovering if toms set up traditionally in front of me.
I just set them up that way when I put the black dots on but had them to far away (next day back hurt) and I still couldn't get rid of buzz. What I had been doing is just move my two toms to right (away from snare) and moved ride in front. It actually works well-no buzz and I usually do single handed accents on toms with my other hand on snare with fills-and even if both hands I don't have to reach over my kick. It's mainly the 10 in tom that buzzes the snare-the 13 in is not as bad which is odd since it's a 13 in snare. The reason I set it up Purdie style because the 10 in in front of snare buzzed more. I think there is always just a slight minimal buzz-I guess the reason why videos play toms snares on and off LOL. Anyways screw it -I'm going to move my ride back to non-traditional position and just go with what works for me. Seems I've been fighting myself trying to be traditionalist-even fooled with traditional grip (it is what I initially played) a bit. I'm just not traditional I guess so I want to focus on outcomes rather than how I do it.
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yeah...I get into spurts where I am always changing the set up, but have recently settled and stuck with a set up for 4ish years...now I just tend to add effects to the main set up every once in a while...
 
Auspicious said:
Question #1:
Do you think it's absolutely necessary for a drummer to master the integral Moeller technique in traditional grip? The technique is so highly rated that it makes me wonder if some experienced people actually DON'T use the Moeller method at all? (If they have the courage to come forward with some arguments)
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Tony Williams had touched on this subject in one the 80s clinic videos of not depending on rebound and I've heard Cindy Blackman expand on it about having a firmness in grip for direct control. Rodney Holmes is another who talked about this firmness vs Moeller and reminds me more of Tony. But I took it that all three probably know Moeller with some borrowing but not religiously. Steve Gadd is another and if you look at early Weckl or Steve Smith video, they have Gadd left hand postering before developing more Gruber influence. I heard Vinnie studied under Gruber but I don't know to what extent, his Tony influence is always very evident. Gadd plays a short stick and chokes it (left hand) back for power/backbeats/control on low tuned drums.

I think you really need both; understanding the physics of the bounce to control it to your advantage but while having the muscle strength to play whatever you want, regardless of the surface or head tension (which is a great argument to learn opposite hand lead). But my trad grip is crap, only presentable in brush playing or a pad and not something I'm looking to develop seriously...not that it matters, match concepts apply as well.
 
Auspicious said:
@rhumbagirl

I am unable currently to play a fast ride pattern, but it makes sense to think that it is because I lack the proper motion to do it.
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It could also be because you havent put in the time yet to play the fast ride pattern. Regardless of the technique you employ, if you arent at that speed yet, you arent there yet. Just sitting down and doing the work has just as much legitimacy as technique searching.

What I'm saying is, for example, with enough practice one can play 16ths on one hand at 100bpm using whatever technique they want, be it fingers, push-pull, moeller, or whatever. But the work must be done or the rewards will be none.
 
I flew down to Florida about 15 years ago and spent the day with Jim Chapin. He was the first to admit that the technique was not for long streams of notes at the same volume. Essentially it is a method of making an accent using the whipping motion obtained by raising the butt end of the stick first as opposed to to the tip when making the stroke. The accent then allows for rebound which can be utilized for short bursts of notes.

I met Jim after studying for almost 2 years with Joe Morello. Frankly, Moeller was just another tool and not some otherworldly "method to triple your hand speed in 3 days!!!" BS nonsense.

If you go through the Chapin jazz independence book after learning Moeller, you will see how Chapin's use of the technique definitely influenced the phrasings in the book. The book is also dedicated to Moeller.

Watch how Vinnie plays accented ride patterns. That is a real-life Moeller in action as opposed to the over-the-head nonsense I see some guys selling.
 
Auspicious said:
These techniques are not coming naturally for me, I think it's a good theoretical update, just to stop and to learn it correctly.

Everything is DIY for me, it takes me much longer to learn new things, it's ok.
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notice I said if you play long enough.

just play music ... this is not a "technique" in the sense of it is something that needs to be studied.

a major problem drummers have is they think everything is a "technique"

they spend more time trying to "master" "techniques" off a DVD than they do just playing music from their heart.

Anyone who thinks of this as a precision art needs to look at those two words next to each other

precision ... art

to me those two words do not live in the same atmosphere in terms of making music
 
MG1127 said:
notice I said if you play long enough.

just play music ... this is not a "technique" in the sense of it is something that needs to be studied.

a major problem drummers have is they think everything is a "technique"

they spend more time trying to "master" "techniques" off a DVD than they do just playing music from their heart.
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BUT, if the music that we want to "come from our heart" needs a specific kind of stroke technique to execute, then we need to master it. Not every drummer in the world finds mid tempo "money beat" to be "from the heart". Some drummers also want to play punk beats, fast jazz cymbal patterns, intricate 7/8 to 13/16 based prog beats at 200bpm...from the heart.

"just play music" is not good enough for many people..."just play music" does not work in most professional situations. You have to have adaptability, and adaptability comes from way more than just playing along to CD's, or at the open mic blues night every week. I have been a witness of too many sessions where people were just "playing from the heart" <---those usually have relatively small audiences, and not many return patrons...

MG1127 said:
Anyone who thinks of this as a precision art needs to look at those two words next to each other

precision ... art

to me those two words do not live in the same atmosphere in terms of making music
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you are boxing yourself into a hole by virtue of that statement...and missing out on a lot of great musical experiences

art has it's own definition, and need of that definition, of precision. I think music more than many others. If you are playing with more than one person in a group, you have to have precision, or it will not read properly. That precision does not have to be architecturally precise...but it has to be there, and be defined.

the most experimental Grateful Dead jam session or Coltrane jazz exploration has just as much precision - and technique - as the most intricately put together King Crimson or Tigran Hamasyan work...they just get displayed differently
 
I like this guy's version. It's not Moeller, but seems quite similar and uses the same four strokes, but at a reasonable height.
(Please correct me if I am completely mistaken)
His enthusiasm for pure technique is infectious too

 
Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX said:
BUT, if the music that we want to "come from our heart" needs a specific kind of stroke technique to execute, then we need to master it. Not every drummer in the world finds mid tempo "money beat" to be "from the heart". Some drummers also want to play punk beats, fast jazz cymbal patterns, intricate 7/8 to 13/16 based prog beats at 200bpm...from the heart.

"just play music" is not good enough for many people..."just play music" does not work in most professional situations. You have to have adaptability, and adaptability comes from way more than just playing along to CD's, or at the open mic blues night every week. I have been a witness of too many sessions where people were just "playing from the heart" <---those usually have relatively small audiences, and not many return patrons...



you are boxing yourself into a hole by virtue of that statement...and missing out on a lot of great musical experiences

art has it's own definition, and need of that definition, of precision. I think music more than many others. If you are playing with more than one person in a group, you have to have precision, or it will not read properly. That precision does not have to be architecturally precise...but it has to be there, and be defined.

the most experimental Grateful Dead jam session or Coltrane jazz exploration has just as much precision - and technique - as the most intricately put together King Crimson or Tigran Hamasyan work...they just get displayed differently
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go spend years mastering "techniques" then

learning "techniques" has absolutely nothing to do with playing with technique ... zero

be well
 
Moeller technique do you really need to master it?

No, there's plenty of fine drummers that don't use Moeller. And what does it even mean it master Moeller anyways?
 
Stephen Taylor's snare pattern on Tears for Fears "Everybody Wants To Rule The World" is Moeller. He's raising his forearm while bending his wrist down to play the first ghost note on the 'a' of beats 1 and 3, then lowers his forearm while straightening his wrist to play the accented note on beats 2 and 4.

 
Maybe the most concise way to define Moeller is:

.............Using upstream mechanics to facilitate downstream mechanics............

Again, in Stephen Taylor's video, we see the Moeller technique applied to his hihat pattern with the slight turn of his hand (French grip) during the downstroke. Turning the hand facilitates getting the butt end of the stick started in the upward motion before that of the playing end of the stick. So the upstream mechanics are the turning of the radius/ulna of the forearm, then the bending of the wrist, with the downstream mechanics being the fingers of the hand in controlling rebound and forming the fulcrum.

 
rhumbagirl said:
Maybe the most concise way to define Moeller is:

.............Using upstream mechanics to facilitate downstream mechanics............

Again, in Stephen Taylor's video, we see the Moeller technique applied to his hihat pattern with the slight turn of his hand (French grip) during the downstroke. Turning the hand facilitates getting the butt end of the stick started in the upward motion before that of the playing end of the stick. So the upstream mechanics are the turning of the radius/ulna of the forearm, then the bending of the wrist, with the downstream mechanics being the fingers of the hand in controlling rebound and forming the fulcrum.

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I thought of Jeff Sipe as an example of what you are talking about for some lesser know examples (and with matched)

 
toddbishop said:
What's the fastest tempo you're able to play comfortably, and well?
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Good question.

Bill Evans - portrait in jazz - Peri's Scope
I can play it at 182 bpm and I am having fun, it's a comfortable speed for me. At speeds like that, I can wander around the toms too if required.

Bill Evans - Portrait in jazz - What Is This Thing Called Love
+- 235 bpm
If I drink coffee it will be possible for me to follow some parts.. but it's too fast for my current skill, I'll spend most of my energy keeping up with the ride and the hi-hats on 2 and 4, the comping will destabilize the ride and the Hi-hat.

So I would say the faster I can play comfortably must be around 200bpm max...
 
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