You're lucky if your grip is somewhat similar ... because I think Spivack's whole idea was the "natural" way of gripping the stick.
But just keep working at it and analyzing what you're doing!
Murray Spivack technique?
- Thread starter JWM
- Start date
But just keep working at it and analyzing what you're doing!
RudimentalDrummer
Pioneer Member
I was taught by my Instructor to played this way & hold sticks in this way, but I didn't know it's got a name for this so-call technique. I was told that it gives better control (I feel it too) thus consistency & good dynamics even at a good speed around the kit.
Well, it's not really a "named" technique per se, but rather a set of concepts taught by Murray Spivack. What gives it such a degree of association and cred is the drummers who literally sought out Murray for instruction-- a short list would include Louie Bellson, Vinnie Colaiuta, Virgil Donati, David Garibaldi, Matt Chamberlain and Chad Wackerman.
Apparently Murray was thought of in tight circles on the West Coast (primarily around L.A. and vicinity) as being THE guy to go to for hand technique.
n2xlr8n
Senior Member
Wow.
Evidently Mr. Silverman has longer thumbs than I, or the picture is deceiving. If I place my thumb slightly ahead of my index finger, it closes my "gap" between my index and thumb, dampening the rebound. His grip looks like what Rick Steed taught and I use today (other than the long thumb ; ) ).
Any comments?
My current "teacher" believes in 1) the fulcrum is in the 2nd joint of the index, and 2) there should be no gap. Obviously, I'm not using his grip advice. You can tell his grip is "different" by the way his drums sound and the "pinched" sound of his rolls.
Evidently Mr. Silverman has longer thumbs than I, or the picture is deceiving. If I place my thumb slightly ahead of my index finger, it closes my "gap" between my index and thumb, dampening the rebound. His grip looks like what Rick Steed taught and I use today (other than the long thumb ; ) ).
Any comments?
My current "teacher" believes in 1) the fulcrum is in the 2nd joint of the index, and 2) there should be no gap. Obviously, I'm not using his grip advice. You can tell his grip is "different" by the way his drums sound and the "pinched" sound of his rolls.
Having studied with a student of Murray's through the 50's and used the 'Spivack Technique' for 55 years, I always recall the system termed as 'Fixed Pressure and Finger Control'. It is possible that this description may have originated with Billy Gladstone. Quote Louie Bellson: "I first heard about Billy Gladstone while I was studying with Murray Spivack. Guys have always associated that finger technique with me because they've seen me do it. But actually, I got it from Murray and Billy Gladstone, who in turn got their concepts of finger technique from the French and Swiss drummers. But Murray always used to say that Billy was the real master and the leading exponent of the finger system". 'Billy Remembered' Modern Drummer, vol. 5 no. 7 Modern Drummer Publications, Inc., Cedar Grove, NJ, 1981
Also, Billy Gladstone by Chet Falzerano, Centerstream Publishing LLC P.O. Box 17878, Anaheim Hills, CA 92817
I had this thread bookmarked and thought I might check in... so funny to just now see a new post after like 6 months!
Thanks for contributing.
Are you in California? I learned from the late Rick Steed, one of Mr. Spivack's students who was based out of Riverside.
'Fixed Pressure' sounds right, but I'm not sure about the 'Finger Control' aspect of it. Seems like finger control has come to mean 'finger snapping' or the 'open/close - push/pull' approach. As I understand and practice it, Mr. Spivack's approach lies in the 'Fixed Pressure' aspect of it-- no opening/closing or pushing/pulling. It's a fixed fulcrum with the middle finger with additional support and pressure from the thumb and a "pinch" with the index at the first/furthest joint. The ring and pinky do not grip, but simply rest on or just off the stick (I prefer them to rest around the stick for additional support and to keep the stick's movement limited for more control and power).
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What are the benefits of using the middle finger for the fulcrum+thumb vs. the forefinger+thumb?
Forgive me, but I'm really struggling with this technique. Why would you ignore fingers that can add so much feel to your playing. Using the forefinger+thumb, I have three fingers to finely control the feel. Without them, things will become quite monotone.
My take is that add as many body parts as you can - in a relaxed fashion - to inject feel into your playing. To me, removing parts ( your free fingers ) really disturbs me. Maybe, I'm being stubborn, or hard-headed... I don't know. I will try this out though. Hehehe...
Forgive me, but I'm really struggling with this technique. Why would you ignore fingers that can add so much feel to your playing. Using the forefinger+thumb, I have three fingers to finely control the feel. Without them, things will become quite monotone.
My take is that add as many body parts as you can - in a relaxed fashion - to inject feel into your playing. To me, removing parts ( your free fingers ) really disturbs me. Maybe, I'm being stubborn, or hard-headed... I don't know. I will try this out though. Hehehe...
I am from Utah. All that you say is correct within my long time understanding. The 'finger snapping' though, I don't relate too.... HA! ...maybe finger control. My original study dates back to the early 50's when most of the old original advocates were still alive. I wish that I had studied and had contact with Murray. My teachers were very strong and particular advocates of the method I know as 'Fixed Pressure and Finger Control' ....Billy Wilson, Forrest Clark and indirectly, Ralph Collier. The 'finger control' aspect of the study is that of more pressure adjustment at the fulcrum than a 'snapping'. The entire George L. Stone pub can be practiced utilizing mulitiple bounces and pressure adjustment of the middle finger and dependant on the rebound of the drum head. The 'grip' is loose, a rather open hand. I am sorry to see and fail to read much on the left hand (traditional) position. The fulcrum between the thumb and first finger crotch, the first finger the pressure control and third finger a moveable platform for the stick. If one can see a photo of Billy Gladstone in position, the grips are undeniable. Louie Bellson too. Joe Morello too. Joe frequently uses LH first finger control for extremely rapid single strokes or RH third finger in the same fashion. He usually turns his LH over in doing so. Louie does it palm up. I recall developement for this long ago....three separate developements to act as one: finger, wrist and arm. I wish that I could have watched Billy Gladstone play because all I've ever heard is that he was the master of finger, wrist and arm. It has been a long, long time but the position has become kindred to riding a bike. My hands go to the original grip. Thanks for the response. Keeps my head going...in the right direction.......hopefully.
Well, there is the maxim that you do whatever works for you, and if you like what you're doing, why change, right?
But I think this technique has proven to be advantageous for many "name" players such as Vinnie, Garibaldi, Louie Bellson and even Weckl adopted it with his right hand.
What I find interesting is that the sound you get from the drums is far from monotone... it's the exact opposite-- they really sing, because your hand is relaxed and the stick is moving more freely in your hand. With some time and patience, you can develop power with it too by bringing the stick into the hand more via the middle finger (which is pretty much what I do all the time now anyway).
Weckl actually has a decent demonstration of some of the principals--
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oisX1nhhmeM
He learned it from Freddie Gruber, but these concepts are very "California" based as Freddie and Murray have been the technique guys out there.
spivackfan
Junior Member
It sure is nice to see people finaly recognizing Murray,I studied with Murray in 77-78,I was very lucky,he was the very best and demanded the very best,if you didn,t keep up you were let go.His grip is like holding a baseball and bouncing it,very natural and very loose,you hold the stick between the thumb and the first joint of you index finger your middle finger is held behind the index finger using the tip not the joint(fat part),the other follow behind not touching the stick but relaxed as if you put your fist on your leg-naturaly.Just for record Chuck studied with Richard Wilson who was a teacher for Murray,but let go .It would be nice to talk of Murrays other accoplishments also such as putting the sound in the MGM lion ,Oscar for Hello Dolly etc.
Ancient Drummer
Junior Member
Just discovered this site via a Google search. It is very interesting, thanks for letting me in.
In 1958 I studied with Murray Spivack, then later with Forrest Clark (and several others for various aspects of drumming). You guys are absolutely right about the "Spivack Technique", and how great it is.
However, it is much more than the grip! It involves using the arms, shoulders, wrists, fingers, and body in very natural physical actions. The use of the elbows as counter balances, and the whole arm as a whip is much of the essence of the style.
I began drumming as a tympanist, and became an original proponent of the matched grip. I came to the rude realization that by using Spivack's variation of the traditional grip, my left hand could do things that my right hand couldn't come close to. Examples of this are Joey Morello's and Buddy Rich's incredible one-handed rolls. (Rich did not study with Murray, but I believe that Murray studied Rich's techniques and expanded on them). It is interesting to watch some of the great percussionists, and discover that they are using elements of Murray's techniques, even on the East Coast. Frederick Fennell and I discussed this several years ago, and he agreed that Spivack was probably the best ever at defining what made "good" drumming.
It has stayed with me, and even though I have not played for about thirty years, I can still step into a concert band and play all the Sousa, including the 6-stroke rolls the old guys used to use. Gotta admit, though, I get pretty tired . . . . .
Keep up the good work.
Ed
In 1958 I studied with Murray Spivack, then later with Forrest Clark (and several others for various aspects of drumming). You guys are absolutely right about the "Spivack Technique", and how great it is.
However, it is much more than the grip! It involves using the arms, shoulders, wrists, fingers, and body in very natural physical actions. The use of the elbows as counter balances, and the whole arm as a whip is much of the essence of the style.
I began drumming as a tympanist, and became an original proponent of the matched grip. I came to the rude realization that by using Spivack's variation of the traditional grip, my left hand could do things that my right hand couldn't come close to. Examples of this are Joey Morello's and Buddy Rich's incredible one-handed rolls. (Rich did not study with Murray, but I believe that Murray studied Rich's techniques and expanded on them). It is interesting to watch some of the great percussionists, and discover that they are using elements of Murray's techniques, even on the East Coast. Frederick Fennell and I discussed this several years ago, and he agreed that Spivack was probably the best ever at defining what made "good" drumming.
It has stayed with me, and even though I have not played for about thirty years, I can still step into a concert band and play all the Sousa, including the 6-stroke rolls the old guys used to use. Gotta admit, though, I get pretty tired . . . . .
Keep up the good work.
Ed
Ed,
Thank you very much for the contribution. There is some wonderful history with all of this!
And you are right... it's much more than just the grip, though it is difficult to explain the wrist/arm motions without a visual guide.
Hopefully the interest in Murray's concepts will be revitalized with a new generation and those with the media support can get it out there... I'm trying darn hard to do something about it!
I'm actually hoping to study with Chuck Silverman when I get to the Musicians Institute in the spring so that I can really understand how to best teach it...
Cheers!
ChuckSilverman
DW PRO DRUMMER
Re: Murray Spivack technique? from Chuck Silverman
hey guys
I'd like to revitalize the messages about Murray Spivack and also about Richard Wilson. I studied with these two Geniuses, and I don't use that term lightly. I'm writing, actually, right now, about my lessons with Murray and Richard. It's such a shame that they have both passed on. My lessons with them, 3 years with Richard and 2 years with Murray, have served me so well for so long. All about relaxing and holding on to the sticks in a very natural way.
I'd like to discuss this with anyone who's interested!
Hope to hear from some of you soon,
Chuck
hey guys
I'd like to revitalize the messages about Murray Spivack and also about Richard Wilson. I studied with these two Geniuses, and I don't use that term lightly. I'm writing, actually, right now, about my lessons with Murray and Richard. It's such a shame that they have both passed on. My lessons with them, 3 years with Richard and 2 years with Murray, have served me so well for so long. All about relaxing and holding on to the sticks in a very natural way.
I'd like to discuss this with anyone who's interested!
Hope to hear from some of you soon,
Chuck
Alex Luce
Pro Drummer
Re: Murray Spivack technique? from Chuck Silverman
Hello Chuck:
I met you about 25 years ago at one of your gigs in Los Angeles. I appreciate your post here and would love to get your opinion on the following topic:
I have a theory that the greatest drummers use their arms as systems of levers when playing. To me, the most important factor for successful playing is not how the sticks are held, but how the arms move when the drums are struck. I believe when your stroke is correct, the grip can be easily adjusted to accommodate different types of playing. However, the stroke (the way the entire arm moves) is a constant that relies on using the arms as lever systems; and whether you are using French, German or traditional grip, the movements remain pretty much the same.
I have read the information about Murray's lessons on your website, but I am still not sure if any of his views and concepts he expressed coincide with mine. If you have time to read some information I have posted on a thread here, and then give me your opinion, I would be most grateful. http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?p=373376&highlight=system+of+levers#post373376
Sincerely,
Alex Luce
Hello Chuck:
I met you about 25 years ago at one of your gigs in Los Angeles. I appreciate your post here and would love to get your opinion on the following topic:
I have a theory that the greatest drummers use their arms as systems of levers when playing. To me, the most important factor for successful playing is not how the sticks are held, but how the arms move when the drums are struck. I believe when your stroke is correct, the grip can be easily adjusted to accommodate different types of playing. However, the stroke (the way the entire arm moves) is a constant that relies on using the arms as lever systems; and whether you are using French, German or traditional grip, the movements remain pretty much the same.
I have read the information about Murray's lessons on your website, but I am still not sure if any of his views and concepts he expressed coincide with mine. If you have time to read some information I have posted on a thread here, and then give me your opinion, I would be most grateful. http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?p=373376&highlight=system+of+levers#post373376
Sincerely,
Alex Luce
Vinnysimmo
Senior Member
I have never heard of this technique before and i am intrigued. Could Chuck or anyone else who has studdied with Spivak be so kind as to post a vido so i could see what it looks like in action? It would be great if someone could do this and im sure i would not be the only one interested in this.
C
Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan
Guest
From the photos further down the thread,
http://chucksilverman.com/technique.html
the grip itself looks exactly like what Dom Famularo teaches. The description also pretty much matches. So I am all for! What I like is that the juxtaposition of thumb and forefinger is how the hand looks in a relaxed state, and so to me that makes sense as a "natural" approach.
I hope to learn more about Spivak, whom many people on the board speak of with such reverence.
Casper
http://chucksilverman.com/technique.html
the grip itself looks exactly like what Dom Famularo teaches. The description also pretty much matches. So I am all for! What I like is that the juxtaposition of thumb and forefinger is how the hand looks in a relaxed state, and so to me that makes sense as a "natural" approach.
I hope to learn more about Spivak, whom many people on the board speak of with such reverence.
Casper
MattRitter
Senior Member
Hi, Chuck
We meet again! Thanks for logging in to invite questions about grip. I'll certainly take you up on that!
Looking at the photos and description on your website, it seems that your grip is similar to the one I use most often:
a) Middle finger is the fulcrum
b) Thumb and index finger are on the sides of the stick, serving as a guide
Three points I'd like to get your input on:
1) You describe the fulcrum as the FIRST knuckle of the middle finger. For me, that seems to work only for unusually light playing. For typical playing, I definitely prefer to move the stick back toward the SECOND knuckle of the middle finger. Or...actually, maybe the stick sits on the section of finger IN BETWEEN the first and second knuckle. Any thoughts on this? Was this adjustment part of Spivack's teaching?
2) Early in my drum studies, I was taught to place the stick in the center crease of the hand, so that the stick makes a direct extension of the arm.
Later, I studied with Jim Chapin, who taught me to place the stick against the "shock absorber pad" under the pinky finger. In this way, the fingers can wrap around the stick more naturally. However, this results in an angle between the stick and the arm that is pretty severe (probably about 135 degrees, rather than a straight 180 degrees). I played that way for many years.
Then, about 4 years ago, I studied with a master drummer with roots in the classical field. This guy is very famous in the New York classical and Broadway scene, and I consider him to be one of the world's best drummers (played West Side Story under Leonard Bernstein, tympani solo at Carnegie Hall, held a couple of Broadway chairs, played in Jefferson Airplane as a high school student, toured with Liza Minelli, etc. etc.) When I met him, he immediately stated that I would benefit from going back to having the stick in the center crease of the hand (to make the stick a direct extension of the arm). Since then, I've generally played in this way.
My personal observations are as follows:
The "angled" hold (as taught by Jim Chapin) works well for Moeller, and it works well if you play with a sort of "side throw" type stroke. It is a very natural way to HOLD something, but it is not necessarily a natural way to reach out and hit something. It positions the stick out of alignment with the direction of the actual wrist hinge movement.
The "center crease" hold places the stick in alignment with the wrist hinge movement and therefore feels like a more natural way to strike something. However, the hold itself is not quite as natural. Many drummers and drum teachers (both live and on DVD) teach the angled hold when showing how to hold the stick. Then...when they actually start playing (especially at faster tempos), the stick clearly shifts to become a straight line with their arm!
The pictures on your site seem to show a stick position which is somewhere in between the 2 versions I described. Do you have any strong opinions on this matter? Did Spivack?
3) For fast and fluid playing, it seems logical to place the fulcrum at the point on the stick that gives the best natural bounce. However, for a strong backbeat, I find it helpful to intentionally hold BEHIND this point. The downside, of course, is that the stick is less responsive when you depart from the main groove to do a fill. Any thoughts? Do you find one single spot on the stick to hold and stay there for all applications, or might you slide forward and backward depending on the needs of the moment? What did Spivack teach?
Thanks, Chuck! I know I've hit you with quite a lot here. I appreciate it.
Hope you've been well.
Matt Ritter
Bass Drum Techniques For Today's Drummer
www.UnBuryingTheBeater.com
We meet again! Thanks for logging in to invite questions about grip. I'll certainly take you up on that!
Looking at the photos and description on your website, it seems that your grip is similar to the one I use most often:
a) Middle finger is the fulcrum
b) Thumb and index finger are on the sides of the stick, serving as a guide
Three points I'd like to get your input on:
1) You describe the fulcrum as the FIRST knuckle of the middle finger. For me, that seems to work only for unusually light playing. For typical playing, I definitely prefer to move the stick back toward the SECOND knuckle of the middle finger. Or...actually, maybe the stick sits on the section of finger IN BETWEEN the first and second knuckle. Any thoughts on this? Was this adjustment part of Spivack's teaching?
2) Early in my drum studies, I was taught to place the stick in the center crease of the hand, so that the stick makes a direct extension of the arm.
Later, I studied with Jim Chapin, who taught me to place the stick against the "shock absorber pad" under the pinky finger. In this way, the fingers can wrap around the stick more naturally. However, this results in an angle between the stick and the arm that is pretty severe (probably about 135 degrees, rather than a straight 180 degrees). I played that way for many years.
Then, about 4 years ago, I studied with a master drummer with roots in the classical field. This guy is very famous in the New York classical and Broadway scene, and I consider him to be one of the world's best drummers (played West Side Story under Leonard Bernstein, tympani solo at Carnegie Hall, held a couple of Broadway chairs, played in Jefferson Airplane as a high school student, toured with Liza Minelli, etc. etc.) When I met him, he immediately stated that I would benefit from going back to having the stick in the center crease of the hand (to make the stick a direct extension of the arm). Since then, I've generally played in this way.
My personal observations are as follows:
The "angled" hold (as taught by Jim Chapin) works well for Moeller, and it works well if you play with a sort of "side throw" type stroke. It is a very natural way to HOLD something, but it is not necessarily a natural way to reach out and hit something. It positions the stick out of alignment with the direction of the actual wrist hinge movement.
The "center crease" hold places the stick in alignment with the wrist hinge movement and therefore feels like a more natural way to strike something. However, the hold itself is not quite as natural. Many drummers and drum teachers (both live and on DVD) teach the angled hold when showing how to hold the stick. Then...when they actually start playing (especially at faster tempos), the stick clearly shifts to become a straight line with their arm!
The pictures on your site seem to show a stick position which is somewhere in between the 2 versions I described. Do you have any strong opinions on this matter? Did Spivack?
3) For fast and fluid playing, it seems logical to place the fulcrum at the point on the stick that gives the best natural bounce. However, for a strong backbeat, I find it helpful to intentionally hold BEHIND this point. The downside, of course, is that the stick is less responsive when you depart from the main groove to do a fill. Any thoughts? Do you find one single spot on the stick to hold and stay there for all applications, or might you slide forward and backward depending on the needs of the moment? What did Spivack teach?
Thanks, Chuck! I know I've hit you with quite a lot here. I appreciate it.
Hope you've been well.
Matt Ritter
Bass Drum Techniques For Today's Drummer
www.UnBuryingTheBeater.com
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ChuckSilverman
DW PRO DRUMMER
Wow.....I wish I knew when people were responding to my posts. hmmmm
well...let me digest this post and get back to you, probably tomorrow. Working all day today and tonight...excellent!!!!
I'll be baaaaack
Chuck
well...let me digest this post and get back to you, probably tomorrow. Working all day today and tonight...excellent!!!!
I'll be baaaaack
Chuck