Murray Spivack technique?

J

JWM

Senior Member
Anyone know how it works?

EDIT/UPDATE: here's a good primer from Chuck Silverman's site--

http://chucksilverman.com/technique.html

And here's a spot-on explanation on the grip concepts from further down the thread--

wind said:
Definitely there is such a thing as the Murray Spivack technique.

Unfortunately a lot of people don’t know about this technique; I realized it is popular mostly on the West Coast (L.A. and San Francisco area).

Here are some basic principles--

a) The foundation of the technique is all in the grip.

b) The grip is a 3-point position between: thumb, index finger and the middle finger.

c) The fulcrum is: at the bottom of the first joint of the middle finger.

d) The thumb and the index finger are just holding the stick into the fulcrum (actually in the middle finger) and their pressure is constant: I mean there is no squeeze and release of the stick!

e) The back two fingers (ring and pinkie) have nothing to do with the grip; they are just dead, curved around the stick, and no action on it. No pushing, pulling or squeezing at all.

There is a video on Murray Spivack with Louie Bellson and David Garibaldi... it is definitely a good buy.
Click to expand...
 
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What technique do you mean exactly? My teacher was taught by Murray Spivack but he's never really mentioned a specific Spivack technique as such. Maybe he has but he just didn't say it was a Spivack one.
 
jazzin' said:
What technique do you mean exactly? My teacher was taught by Murray Spivack but he's never really mentioned a specific Spivack technique as such. Maybe he has but he just didn't say it was a Spivack one.
Click to expand...
Just hand technique in general: grip, fulcrum, mechanics, etc.

My teacher in California studied with him as well, but it's been years since then and my teacher passed away. I was wanting to re-explore some of the concepts to brush up, but it's hard to find anything on Spivack's approach.

It seems to me, that grip was a key factor in the technique-- an area of technique that is alarmingly ignored in discussions about Moeller, Gladstone or any other technique.

The whole Spivack approach is matched grip. I started in German position, and still play it to this day for most of my playing. The middle finger is the fulcrum and primary gripping point, and the back fingers provide support by simply resting on the stick (or the pinky can curl up near the stick). The thumb and first finger act as a sort of hinge for the middle finger's control of the stick, which acts almost as a lever as the stick moves. Tension is avoided by never allowing the pinky to stick out, and pressure--not squeezing--is used to control the stick. I was taught Moeller accenting along with this, and altogether it's a very sound approach...
 
JWM said:
grip was a key factor in the technique-- an area of technique that is alarmingly ignored in discussions
Click to expand...

You're not alone in this opinion.

But there is a certain "dynasty" of Gladstone players that believe that the correct, exact grip is essential. It's hard for people accept that sometimes their grips are just plain wrong.

Sorry I can't help with your specific technique info.
 
I can't really help with any specifics, sorry. I have been taught trad. and just all the usuals that go with it..ie. arm, wrist, finger control, points of tension (or non-tension as it would be) moeller blah blah blah.
I'll try to remember to hassle him, see if he throws anything back.
 
All I can merely remember is that Virgil Donati (who studied with M. Spivack) said that the technique is based on a loose grip and that with his style of playing, he finds the Spivack technique to be akward. For instance, if you've ever seen Virgil do his cross-overs all over the kit between cymbals and toms/snare. Donati mentionned that if he used Spivack's technique during those cross-overs he would loose his sticks.

That's all that comes to mind... It's not much but maybe it might help you remember somthing usefull...


Regards,
Christopher.

Edit: just read on a page that the basic motions are: wrist turn, rebound and upstroke. I know I'm not of very much help but maybe this could "rig a bell."
 
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JWM said:
Just hand technique in general: grip, fulcrum, mechanics, etc.

My teacher in California studied with him as well, but it's been years since then and my teacher passed away. I was wanting to re-explore some of the concepts to brush up, but it's hard to find anything on Spivack's approach.

...
Click to expand...

Hey JWM
Who's you techer in California?
I study with Chuck Silverman and he was one of Murray's prized protojes..

Fuuny thing is we don't even work on those techniques...He seems more interested at this point on working on control and forcing me to do exercises out of my comfort zone...
 
JWM said:
It seems to me, that grip was a key factor in the technique-- an area of technique that is alarmingly ignored in discussions about Moeller, Gladstone or any other technique.
...
Click to expand...
Alarming is when someone doesn't bother to search through the previous discussions to find heaps of spirited discussions about grips. So try that....DPS
 
LinearDrummer said:
Hey JWM
Who's you techer in California?
I study with Chuck Silverman and he was one of Murray's prized protojes..

Fuuny thing is we don't even work on those techniques...He seems more interested at this point on working on control and forcing me to do exercises out of my comfort zone...
Click to expand...
Hey there...

I definitely know about Chuck Silverman. He's a great drummer! He always reminded me of Garibaldi, which is a good thing!

I studied with Rick Steed in Riverside (who sat down with Garibaldi as well), at the old Lier's Music near downtown. When I tried to get back in touch with Rick about four years ago, I learned he passed away.

I only studied with him for about 2 years when I first began, around 15 years ago. More than anything, I wanted to re-explore some of the concepts, but it's hard to remember as I was only 10 years old when I started!

I'm in Nashville now, and it's pretty far away from that California camp...
 
Definitely there is such a thing as the Murray Spivack technique.
I did study other 2 techniques, the Moller and the Push Pull (open closed technique) many years before learning the Spivack, which I think
it is really the beeeeeest technique I’ve ever learned.
Mr. Spivack was a genius.

Unfortunately a lot of people don’t know about this technique, I realized it is popular mostly on the west coast L.A. and San Francisco area.


Here are some basic principles.
a) The foundation of the technique is all in the grip. And the grip is stands on the fulcrum.

b) The grip is a 3-point position between: Thumb, Index finger and the Middle finger.

c) The fulcrum is: at the bottom of the first joint of the middle finger.

d) The thumb and the index finger are just holding the stick into the fulcrum (actually in the middle finger) and their pressure is constant: I mean there is no squeeze and release of the stick!

e) The back 2 fingers (4th and 5th) have nothing to do with the grip. Are just dead, curved around the stick, and no action on it. No pushing, pulling or squeezing at all.

Some considerations about what Virgil Donati said about this technique:
(Donati mentioned that if he used Spivack's technique during those cross-overs he would loose his sticks)

First of all I am not sure if Virgil ever studied with Murray Spivack, I think (but not sure ) he learned it from his early teacher in Australia, great Graham Morgan who was Spivack’s pupil.

It is true that you can occasionally loose the stick (more than ever in the beginning) when playing very heavy, since you are holding the stick almost on your fingertips. But there is one more important rule (upgrading) to keep in mind.

a) for light and medium play, you hold the stick on the first joint of the middle finger (and first joint of the index finger + thumb)
b) for heavy play (or when you are nervous and scared!!..) you hold it on the 2 joint of the middle finger (and 2 joint of index finger + thumb) In this way you’ll never loose the sticks.

Now, after few years using the Spivack technique. I do play real heavy also holding on the 1st joint (and never loose the stick). And when/if I switch to the 2nd joint, it just happens unconsciously.

The great think about this grip is that I can connect it to the Moeller
and to the Push Pull techniques, they work much better. The sound I am getting out of my drums and cymbals is much more polished, and I don’t break that many sticks anymore. (big big money saving)

There is a video on Murry Spivack with Louis Belson and Dave Garibaldi it is definitely a good buy.
 
Hey Wind
I posted a question about the 3 point/middle finger fulcrum technique on the ssr thread the other day. Didn't have any replies but your explanation of the Murray Spivak technique is exactly what I was looking for. Do you have anything further to add to what you've already posted? Maybe a drawing or pic?
Thanks again for your explanation.

Dale.
 
There is a video on Murry Spivack with Louis Belson and Dave Garibaldi it is definitely a good buy.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, this video is out of print. Any idea to find it ?

Thanks
 
JWM said:
Hey there...

I studied with Rick Steed in Riverside (who sat down with Garibaldi as well), at the old Lier's Music near downtown. When I tried to get back in touch with Rick about four years ago, I learned he passed away.
Click to expand...


OMG, I did not know Rick had passed. The drumming community has lost a good soul and a talented guy.

I too, studied with Rick, from 1990-1992 at Lier's.

Small world.

S.
 
wind said:
Definitely there is such a thing as the Murray Spivack technique.
I did study other 2 techniques, the Moller and the Push Pull (open closed technique) many years before learning the Spivack, which I think
it is really the beeeeeest technique I’ve ever learned.
Mr. Spivack was a genius.

Unfortunately a lot of people don’t know about this technique, I realized it is popular mostly on the west coast L.A. and San Francisco area.


Here are some basic principles.
a) The foundation of the technique is all in the grip. And the grip is stands on the fulcrum.

b) The grip is a 3-point position between: Thumb, Index finger and the Middle finger.

c) The fulcrum is: at the bottom of the first joint of the middle finger.

d) The thumb and the index finger are just holding the stick into the fulcrum (actually in the middle finger) and their pressure is constant: I mean there is no squeeze and release of the stick!

e) The back 2 fingers (4th and 5th) have nothing to do with the grip. Are just dead, curved around the stick, and no action on it. No pushing, pulling or squeezing at all.

Some considerations about what Virgil Donati said about this technique:
(Donati mentioned that if he used Spivack's technique during those cross-overs he would loose his sticks)

First of all I am not sure if Virgil ever studied with Murray Spivack, I think (but not sure ) he learned it from his early teacher in Australia, great Graham Morgan who was Spivack’s pupil.

It is true that you can occasionally loose the stick (more than ever in the beginning) when playing very heavy, since you are holding the stick almost on your fingertips. But there is one more important rule (upgrading) to keep in mind.

a) for light and medium play, you hold the stick on the first joint of the middle finger (and first joint of the index finger + thumb)
b) for heavy play (or when you are nervous and scared!!..) you hold it on the 2 joint of the middle finger (and 2 joint of index finger + thumb) In this way you’ll never loose the sticks.

Now, after few years using the Spivack technique. I do play real heavy also holding on the 1st joint (and never loose the stick). And when/if I switch to the 2nd joint, it just happens unconsciously.

The great think about this grip is that I can connect it to the Moeller
and to the Push Pull techniques, they work much better. The sound I am getting out of my drums and cymbals is much more polished, and I don’t break that many sticks anymore. (big big money saving)

There is a video on Murry Spivack with Louis Belson and Dave Garibaldi it is definitely a good buy.
Click to expand...
AWESOME POST!

Everything is right on from what I can remember being taught about it. Thanks a lot for posting all of that.

This really is an amazing technique if the time is taken to fully develop it. I think it does tend to be more of a "finesse" approach, and I've found it's definitely wonderful for Moeller.

I'm now going back to the basics with it, because I developed some bad habits. So far, it's once again proving to be a superior technique. Murray was a genius, not to mention one of Hollywood's most important sound pioneers!

I really think it's important to spread the word on this stuff. Hopefully in the near future I can post some video explaining my progress with it, and you guys can give me feedback...
 
wind said:
Some considerations about what Virgil Donati said about this technique:
(Donati mentioned that if he used Spivack's technique during those cross-overs he would loose his sticks)

First of all I am not sure if Virgil ever studied with Murray Spivack, I think (but not sure ) he learned it from his early teacher in Australia, great Graham Morgan who was Spivack’s pupil.
Click to expand...

This is from Virgil Donati's bio:

[...]At age 19 Virgil travelled to the U.S. to study with Philly Jo Jones, and at Dick Groves School in L.A. He also took lessons from snare drum specialist Murry Spivak.

Returning to Australia at age 21 was where Virgils career took off! Playing jazz with Alan Zavod and Brian Brown,- and rock with Peter Cupples band, he was a busy touring and session drummer Down Under.
Click to expand...
 
Hey wind, yes i am studying with Graham Morgan. A brilliant teacher and fantastic person.
We chatted briefly about some stuff Spivack used to get into, one that was just a multiple bounce idea kind of in between the moeller motion and open close motion but utilising anything up to 6 or so bounces. Yes, some very interesting stuff.
 
My teacher, that I studied with a few months back, was also a student of Murray's. His name is Steve Roth, and he is an excellent teacher and all around friendly guy. As mentioned previously, the technique does have a great amount of finesse and is executed very smoothly. Watching my teacher play was just awesome. He plays everything with great finesse.
 
Ha, from reading about this technique, I think I've kind of adopted a very rough version of it. I've never had a teacher, (I know, I need one, no money) but my grip is somewhat similar
 
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