Who has to play to a click or backing track live?

[WhoIsTony?]

Can you further explain that a little? Say if there's a guitar-only intro to a song and you want to play to a click they can't hear, you're basically just listening for the part to come to an end and then attempting to line up an accent click "1" to start with?... Does the guitar player need to be aware you're going to do that and basically give you some leeway at the end of the intro so you can line things up to the grid? Are you simply starting the click before you start so it's not running and it's more lined up right away?

That's another good example of what frustrates me. If only I hear the click and have to stop playing or come in later in a section/after intro invariably things don't stay on count.

I was referring to completely drumless instrumental portions of the show that may be under dialog or something where there is no time being kept ... when the time portions start I count the band in ... much more simple than it sounds I guess

if it were a rock type situation as you are describing I would simply give them time through it

 

[Dr_Watso]

Oh, I see... I thought you were describing some method of lining up something like I mentioned without giving time through it. Curiosity satisfied!

 

[sticksnstonesrus]

Can you further explain that a little? Say if there's a guitar-only intro to a song and you want to play to a click they can't hear, you're basically just listening for the part to come to an end and then attempting to line up an accent click "1" to start with?... Does the guitar player need to be aware you're going to do that and basically give you some leeway at the end of the intro so you can line things up to the grid? Are you simply starting the click before you start so it's not running and it's more lined up right away?

That's another good example of what frustrates me. If only I hear the click and have to stop playing or come in later in a section/after intro invariably things don't stay on count.

That’s why everyone needs to be on (usually). Having a click to the drummer only gets you only so far as the drummer has to control where “1” is to the rest of the band if he’s the only one who can hear it.

Provided everyone is listening, great programs like Ableton have lead in voices that actually take care of saying “Bridge, 2-3-4” or “verse” etc...very handy. And right in time with the click. Like having a Music Director...

 

[Dr_Watso]

That’s why everyone needs to be on (usually). Having a click to the drummer only gets you only so far as the drummer has to control where “1” is to the rest of the band if he’s the only one who can hear it.

Like Tony pointed out a few times... This really depends on having good players at your side who aren't going to get out of line. Even without counting or click, good musicians would all know where the "1" is as they play or the song wouldn't work.

With less than good musicians I think everyone hearing the click might be a better option. Lots of un-seasoned players aren't used to having to account for strict time when they play their lines and will try and pull you around when you can't be moved since you're clicked-in. This often ends up looking like a bad drummer situation instead of what it really is... Might be part of why I'm sensitive about it.

 

[New Tricks]

it's truly all about the caliber of players surrounding you

BAM !!



Some people just can't seem to do it.

I had a bass player who would honestly question the reliability of the click lol.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Well, he's a bass player - sooooooo...

 

[sticksnstonesrus]

Like Tony pointed out a few times... This really depends on having good players at your side who aren't going to get out of line. Even without counting or click, good musicians would all know where the "1" is as they play or the song wouldn't work.

With less than good musicians I think everyone hearing the click might be a better option. Lots of un-seasoned players aren't used to having to account for strict time when they play their lines and will try and pull you around when you can't be moved since you're clicked-in. This often ends up looking like a bad drummer situation instead of what it really is... Might be part of why I'm sensitive about it.

I don’t agree with that at all. I’m playing among fantastic professionals who all have extensive experience. We’re still all on a click. As stated by others, the click isn’t a crutch. It’s a guide. Sometimes we get ‘unseasoned’ players in and it doesn’t take long but they get used to the click as well. If your application doesn’t call for its use (by you and your band members choice) than that’s where that ends. Many great musicians find the click foreign and can’t/won’t play to one. Not because they can’t play their instrument, they just can’t play it in the regiment of time. You can make feel around the click - in almost every live application. Furthermore... Drums are the primary timekeeping instrument and if the other musicians can’t follow then that’s on them - not the click.

The whole thing needs to work and through preparation, practice, and experience (using a click) the product is finitely perfected. I apologize if that is a little harsh but I have an idea of trying to create (recreate) music that is consistent. I don’t have perfect pitch nor perfect time where I can just grab 142bpm out of thin air. How do you survive the studio without it? It’s one thing to have a jam session or a project where it’s just from the seat of your pants but that’s not the end all. And certainly the use of a click is not a determination of the quality of the musician, that’s asinine.

 

[sticksnstonesrus]

I think you both completely misinterpreted what I said because nothing you typed here is at all relevant to the point that Watso attempted to make by using me as a reference

maybe I should have been more clear ... that's on me

I wasn’t interpreting your words Tony. Those are my thoughts on click and musicians.

Sometimes I wish we could just talk. The online experience is great and all but the ability to actually hear what we have to say sometimes gets lost in the keyboard and text.

 

[dannypatterson]

I've fill-in on a gig last year for a Frank Sinatra singer that was to a click/backing track (since a lot of Frank's songs have orchestra) so playing to a click can also happen in a jazz setting.

I've also done gigs where they prefer the drummer to play to a click on all songs even if there is no track playing ... I can push/pull the tempo with no problems playing to a click.

 

[Spreggy]

You're right.

Now, in a jazz ensemble up to jazz band size and then up to big band size, everybody has to be playing at same tempo. If the tempo varies it's usually done on purpose. You can't have everyone scattered everywhere and a lot of accidental variation. The drummer is the focus and he or she's gotta know what to do with tempo, and the other players have to key off of the drummer. I saw a band last week a jazz band live. Three sets 10:30p-1:30a. No click tracks. All listening to each other and drummer. That's the way I like it and how I think it's supposed to be and what creates best sound and best performance.

One interesting observation: Click tracks are usually mentioned here in conjunction with backing tracks. I think that is a key to who uses click tracks. I've never been to a live performance that used backing tracks. That seems to be a modern development; fill in what we don't have on stage with recorded tracks of other instruments. Sorta defeats the purpose of a live performance and enjoying the music live musicians create together. Sorta like lip-synching. Not my cup of tea. Obviously, the music I like doesn't need or use backing tracks. Or click tracks. It may be a generational thing using backing tracks to add instrumentation and also using click tracks. Becomes a show more than a live performance. I want my music on stage all live 100% played by folks on stage. Others obviously don't. IMHO it's a devolution of music when you add backing tracks and clicks to a live performance. It's called "LIVE" for a reason. Guess I'll go and hear the music I want and play the music I want, and others will go hear an artificially-created sound or play with instruments that only exists as bits of digital data.

I'm glad I resurrected this thread (which I did quite by accident searching on a totally unrelated topic). It's an interesting display of what may be a generational gap and what genres different people enjoy and/or go watch on stage.

I think you're right, that the click became the norm with backing tracks, so everyone had to learn how to play to a drummer who was ignoring them in favor of the pounding click in his or her ear. But, the evolution doesn't stop there.

Players who went through the evolution to backing tracks realized that the band becomes damn tight via the click. You sound so much better playing most pop and rock styles with a click. It's a real game changer. So as the natural backlash of dropping the backing tracks occurs (as it is happening in a new party band that I am putting together), I am insisting the click is staying for the tightness in performances and rehearsals alike. I have all kinds of players joining, from jazz folk who haven't done this to wedding singers who are all over it. Funny thing is, guess who has the worse time and worse time-related habits? The jazz players. Sometimes it's like herding cats, ha ha.

Talking about clicks and jazz combos is silly, but for most other styles of non-improvised music it brings you to the next level. Even if a player hates the idea, I still recommend hopping into a wedding band or something for a season and learn to work with it. You'll learn all kinds of things about your own precious timing that will probably surprise you. I, too, thought I had good time, til I played to a click at gigs.