what's the difference between the Groove and the Pocket?

Rattlin' Bones said:
Not really. I can distinctly define groove. When someone asks me what groove are we playing, I can say it's a swing or shuffle or rock 8's ar a little NOLA feel or a funk or whatever. It's what would be on a piece of sheet music.

Pocket is more qualitative. Playing in pocket is tightness with the other players. If drummer is playing a swing groove but is just totally playing by themselves not paying any attention to accents the bass or keys are playing, then they are playing the groove but they're not playing in the pocket.
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Thanks RB. So would you say a groove is a beat? Like would a shuffle groove be the same as a shuffle beat? Or could groove have slightly different meanings?
 
joedrum said:
Thanks RB. So would you say a groove is a beat? Like would a shuffle groove be the same as a shuffle beat? Or could groove have slightly different meanings?
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not to horn in on RB, but I would say this is how the definition of groove gets used a lot, and is correct
 
Groove is feel and pocket is that foundation you build with a bassist that the whole band builds off.
 
joedrum said:
Thanks RB. So would you say a groove is a beat? Like would a shuffle groove be the same as a shuffle beat? Or could groove have slightly different meanings?
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I think so yes. I call it the groove. Some other people in bands I play/played with call it the beat yeah. What would be on a chart.

In the jazz band I play with, they all use IRealPro for their chord charts. On that app you can pick the groove/beat like you can pick swing or a Latin or 3/4 time or whatever. Anybody know what they call it on IRealPro?

And when you change the noun "groove" to a verb groovin' it takes on a different meaning. Like groovin' to the music. That's something we can share with audience. I can be groovin' to the music playing with a big smile on my face, and audience can be groovin' to music, too. You can be groovin' to recorded music in your car or at home. That's not the same as noun THE GROOVE.
 
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Bo Eder said:
If there can be college courses on the music of Taylor Swift, there must certainly be a class somewhere on groove and pocket 😉
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I don't know if the courses speak as much about the music but more about how they created an entire marketing campaign around it.
 
doggyd69b said:
I don't know if the courses speak as much about the music but more about how they created an entire marketing campaign around it.
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👍I call Taylor "Not So" to my granddaughters...as in not so swift😁. Just to mess with em. Of course she's a billionaire but they haven't put that together to call me out yet.
 
bermuda said:
Groove is feel, pocket is tightness with the other players.
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That's how I think of it.
I tell musicians to imagine a baseball smacking exactly into a glove, for a nice catch. That's pocket.
Groove is a repeated pattern (beat or ostinato) and there are a bunch of qualities that define a good groove, pocket being one of them.
But that's all theoretical. The term "shambolic" is more relevant to people playing at my level.
 
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mikyok said:
Groove is feel and pocket is that foundation you build with a bassist that the whole band builds off.
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When/how do you decide which instrument moves to occupy the same pocket space? Because it's always been me as a drummer who determines it until recently working with a diff bass player. He wasn't gonna move so I did. Not that he's wrong, because there may be a new vibe discovered that I was missing.

But who usually drives the band?
 
2 hit wonder said:
When/how do you decide which instrument moves to occupy the same pocket space? Because it's always been me as a drummer who determines it until recently working with a diff bass player. He wasn't gonna move so I did. Not that he's wrong, because there may be a new vibe discovered that I was missing.

But who usually drives the band?
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That's the magic of finding a great bassist. You just get a telepathic understanding and knowing that if one goes out the pocket, the other stays.

When you're both in the pocket you're a sum greater than your parts.

All dependent on the band who drives it. I'm more than happy to drive a band. It's what drummers do but I've seen plenty of bands with an MD who runs the show.
 
Bo Eder said:
She’s become a force of nature. And I still can’t recognize any of her songs if I heard them on a radio. Amazing.
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Also not my taste and I don't know the names of any of her songs, I do recognize some of them because I have been around people that listen to radio and they do play her songs constantly so I have heard some of them. Regardless of how one feels, she is popular and making a lot of money.
I am sure it must have been how some grandparents felt about OUR taste in music... (that it was not that great and they could not understand why we even liked it).
I guess it has a lot to do with how much the audience can relate to the artist... such as, being about the same age, and have lived through the same historical events and things such as cancel culture, being inclusive and lots of other "movements" that "influence" people theses days.
I remember reading about how much the Beatles were disliked by the previous generation (the parents of the Beatles fans) because they represented everything that generation was rebelling against and for the "adults" it felt like a very disrespectful act (not conforming to the societal norms). Not saying that TS is not conforming, just comparing how her popularity might feel to people that are not fans of hers for one reason or another. Man this is as far from pocket and groove as one can get...
 
doggyd69b said:
Also not my taste and I don't know the names of any of her songs, I do recognize some of them because I have been around people that listen to radio and they do play her songs constantly so I have heard some of them. Regardless of how one feels, she is popular and making a lot of money.
I am sure it must have been how some grandparents felt about OUR taste in music... (that it was not that great and they could not understand why we even liked it).
I guess it has a lot to do with how much the audience can relate to the artist... such as, being about the same age, and have lived through the same historical events and things such as cancel culture, being inclusive and lots of other "movements" that "influence" people theses days.
I remember reading about how much the Beatles were disliked by the previous generation (the parents of the Beatles fans) because they represented everything that generation was rebelling against and for the "adults" it felt like a very disrespectful act (not conforming to the societal norms). Not saying that TS is not conforming, just comparing how her popularity might feel to people that are not fans of hers for one reason or another. Man this is as far from pocket and groove as one can get...
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I apologize to the thread readers 😉
 
Rattlin' Bones said:
Not really. I can distinctly define groove. When someone asks me what groove are we playing, I can say it's a swing or shuffle or rock 8's ar a little NOLA feel or a funk or whatever. It's what would be on a piece of sheet music.

Pocket is more qualitative. Playing in pocket is tightness with the other players. If drummer is playing a swing groove but is just totally playing by themselves not paying any attention to accents the bass or keys are playing, then they are playing the groove but they're not playing in the pocket.
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I get that _you_ can do that. My point was everyone doesn't define them the same - as after listening to a myriad of people use the terms over the years, I've heard tons of overlaps. You say "Pocket is more quantitative" - and yes, it is often used that way (and would behoove anyone to understand that. And yet I can't count the number of times I've heard "playing in the groove" and "playing in the pocket" to mean exactly the same thing. Or "that track has a great pocket".... almost nonsensical usage by your definition. But I've heard nonetheless - and wouldn't want to confused by it (or heaven forbid correct someone) out of strict adherence to one particular definition of a slang term.

I'm not saying that one definition is right and another wrong - I'm saying just the opposite, Both terms are still basically slang.
 
Bo Eder said:
She’s become a force of nature. And I still can’t recognize any of her songs if I heard them on a radio. Amazing.
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Me neither - but I suspect that is far more about our age and dis-interest. Because I have younger people in my life that know their Taylor catalog backwards and forwards.... just as I do with Hendrix or The Beatles.
 
joedrum said:
Thanks RB. So would you say a groove is a beat? Like would a shuffle groove be the same as a shuffle beat? Or could groove have slightly different meanings?
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Yes the term is often used like that - particular among us drummers. But remember these are terms used by all musicians. In various ways as a verb. But also as a verb.
 
Bo Eder said:
She’s become a force of nature. And I still can’t recognize any of her songs if I heard them on a radio. Amazing.
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I think it's partly her lack of missteps. It must be difficult to live in the spotlight and not screw up spectacularly once in a while.
 
TMe said:
I think it's partly her lack of missteps. It must be difficult to live in the spotlight and not screw up spectacularly once in a while.
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She must have an awesome
Management team. I went to look at magazines in a Barnes & Noble and that woman has at least five magazines with her name on them. TS merchandise is everywhere - she’s this generations’ Oprah.
 
Always thought groove is the pattern that spans the main bass riff, 12 bar blues like. I always thought and probably wrongly that playing in the pocket meant you were ring on time with the backbeat, 2, 4, 2, 4, applying fills and getting right back on that 2 and 4, aka playing on time, on the backbeat. Popping that snare right in the pocket, to be right in the groove depends on others like you all have been saying.

The bass is the groove, the drums are the pocket...Though the drummer can shape the groove as in David Garibaldi's funky funk grooves, with paradidle, paradidledidles, a pair of didles and a didle didle didle.
 
Bo Eder said:
She must have an awesome
Management team. I went to look at magazines in a Barnes & Noble and that woman has at least five magazines with her name on them. TS merchandise is everywhere - she’s this generations’ Oprah.
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Wait she is a singer? I wondered what she did besides date a football player...
No I am jokin but every time I make an effort to hear one of her tunes, I do not seem to find the "special" part of it, then I remember she came from country music originally and I kind of start getting it.

The way I see it is when hanna montana grew up and became Miley Cyrus, and went through some phases, she lost an audience of goody goody young girls that were too young to follow Miley through those changes and in comes TS swooping up the younger audience that was left behind by Miley's wilder side. She saw a market and dominated it. Personally I think Miley deserves so much more attention and credit as far as the talent and ability goes. I mean no other female singer ever got me up dancing and singing about buying myself flowers!! Talking groove, she got the groove. I look a fool doing it maybe but that is the catchiest tune I have heard in a long long time. Plus she doesn't sound like everyone else.

sorry i took the groove/pocket thing and the TS thing and HAD to throw in my love for Miley. OK i will go to bed gnite ya'll
 
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