Tightness / Microtiming

lochday said:
Subdividing and counting are important because it enables to spot not only where you are but also where exactly tightness is lacking (several ways of counting of course).
It is not sufficient though. In order to be tight you must play the same stuff at different tempos. Playing slow only does not really help (it only helps when learning something new and when perfecting technical things) You should play not only slow but also fast and very fast. I personally experienced not being ever pleased with what I played at a slow tempo (say 60) until I tried doing the same thing fast (ex 220 or higher) and everything magically came allright, tight and everything at a tempo in between (say 120).
As was said a great help is to sing, too. Just onomatopeia can be very useful. For exemple once you have spotted where you think tightness is lacking just utter a word (eg "bop" or whatever) at this very spot when playing, making sure nothing is flammed at this very spot and it sounds good. Forget the rest and just concentrate on this spot when playing ...
Just my 2 cents
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good points! thank you! especially the point with lpaying things faster is quite helpful. i expierienced this some time ago but i forgot about it. thanks for reminding me!
 
SickRick said:
Boomka, very good suggestions. The first exercise is something I did do exactly the way described some years back. Basically, no matter what I work on, I almost always apply it to the table of time and I think this is helping greatly. However, my main problem is that I think grooves don't feel right all the time. Sometimes it just feels terribly weak, especially when recording and listening back.

Your second exercise sounds very intersting and I'll definetely give it a try. Unfortunately, I couldn't practise today because I had to help a friend of mine with a recording (was supposed to take 1 hour, took 8 hours and still isn't done ;) ), so tomorrow I'll check out all the mentioned stuff. Maybe I'll try to morph some of the mentioned exercises into one exercise that addresses more aspects than just one.

Jeff: Just ordered the book "the inner game of music", I'll see where it takes me.
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Lutz, I just watched your video, and I noted the slight pushing and pulling you're talking about, and I've just had a thought. Your question and many of the responses (including mine) are focussing on the nitty-gritty stuff, but I wonder if a wider scope might be the answer. By this I mean trying to get a conception of the groove you're playing as a whole phrase of one or more bars, rather than focussing in on small increments of time and hoping to piece them together neatly. Perhaps focussing more on the high points in your groove's topography and worrying less about the valleys will bring things more into alignment.

Just another approach you might consider.
 
Lutz, if you come across this thread, I'd be really interested to know the strategies people here came up with worked out for you. Based on the classy Dreadnut Inc performances you've posted since, it sounds to me as though your microtiming is super crisp these days.
 
i'd never seen this thread until you dredged it up, but i can certainly relate to it. when i listen to recordings of myself i often think my timing is terrible, both microtiming between individual strokes and overall tempo. i've become extremely aware of it and i work on it all the time, but i still have issues. it's frustrating!

i have a theory about the whole thing though. my theory is that my timing is actually getting better, but my sensitivity to timing is also getting better so that when i listen to recordings i can more easily tell when i'm out of time. that increased sensitivity makes me react with increased disgust when i listen to my recordings. i think that may have been also what happened to mr. sickrick because i've heard his drumming and i would call it excellent.
 
For what it's worth if you record your practices with a DAW like Audacity you can see graphically in the waveform in real time how close your hits are lining up to a click.

I spent hours the first time I tried this to get my ride to line up exactly to the click on the waveform. It took all of the concentration I could muster and I found that I had that odd look on my face that Neil does. (I was monitoring in headphones) Well this was one limb against a click.

But this does allow you to zoom in as close as you want in time and see how you're doing. You can use this to check for flamming between limbs also.

I'm afraid to try this again, I don't know when I'd be able to start playing again!
 
Wow, great thread, how did I miss this one?

First I'd like to offer up a couple things for review/discussion.

Don't Use a Metronome
http://adamrafferty.wordpress.com/2008/02/27/dont-use-a-metronome/

This is a controversial (to some) article about quantized time versus African-style "body-rhythm" and is quite enlightening if you've never thought about groove and time from this perspective. There's a video of him playing guitar in there, and he's obviously rushing the time, but he's placing the notes where he wants them to be and it feels amazing! If this thread is as much about the ability to place the notes where you want them to be, and you're worried about how you feel while you're playing, then eat this up.

Next I must say I appreciate that Victor Wooten has been brought into the discussion already, because he's a fine example of everything you could ever want achieve as a musician. So I'll run with that, and offer up his incredible DVD, Groove Workshop:

http://www.amazon.com/Victor-Wooten-Groove-Workshop/dp/B001DPC4I2

There are so many jaw-dropping, paradigm-shifting, and outright mind-melting moments on that DVD, and several sections are totally focused around what you're trying to get to - the free and easy mastery of placing the notes EXACTLY WHERE YOU WANT THEM.

In my own experience, I find focusing on one specific beat within a bar or within half of the bar, and trying to nail that successfully - letting everything around it out of your mind - can be a great exercise. You just let the other parts of the bar drift away, and theres only that ONE BEAT and you have to nail only that every single time. Even if the other parts sound like crap, that one note has to be in EXACTLY the place you want it. Record yourself, check out the waveform - get that one note right in the pocket.

Similar to what lochday said (and in keeping with the New Breed tradition) you can pick a word, count, or sound to utter at that moment to emphasize it. I usually focus on the snare to begin (I do beat 4 first, then 2, then both of them), then move to beat one, then beat 3, the "ah" of four, the upbeat of 3, and then on through more elaborate groupings of upbeats or syncopated patterns (the "ah of 1 and 3 + the "and" of 2 and 4 have been of interest lately, drawing from the Afro-Cuban tradition which I know you dig on).

For context, I'll usually do this against a metronome or while grooving along to some hip-hop. I just want to focus on the different parts of a repetitive groove, so most dance and pop music will work nicely as well (I heartily recommend 60s r&b and funky-house music).

Oh, and PS. Wooten also wrote a deliciously weird book called "The Music Lesson" - it's a fantastic read and I highly recommend it.
 
dairyairman said:
i'd never seen this thread until you dredged it up, but i can certainly relate to it. when i listen to recordings of myself i often think my timing is terrible, both microtiming between individual strokes and overall tempo. i've become extremely aware of it and i work on it all the time, but i still have issues. it's frustrating!

i have a theory about the whole thing though. my theory is that my timing is actually getting better, but my sensitivity to timing is also getting better so that when i listen to recordings i can more easily tell when i'm out of time. that increased sensitivity makes me react with increased disgust when i listen to my recordings. i think that may have been also what happened to mr. sickrick because i've heard his drumming and i would call it excellent.
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Dairy, you've spoken my mind. Lining up your microtiming with your awareness of microtiming is like a dog chasing its tail.

I was chatting with Wy today and he diagnosed some of my issues. One was overthinking. If my mind is on what's been played (assessing it) then I'm not ready for the next note and I'll always be surprised by that next note, often with a slight lag ... there's a thought process before placing it that interferes with my timing. If I am anxious about it, I try to compensate to prevent the lag; then I'll tend to get too far on top of the beat and speed up.

The answer is to cultivate a greater awareness of the NOW, but a blurry "now" with a constant eye on what's next so that there's no surprise at that next note and the "nows" flow seamlessly together.

He told a story about Roy Burns who was playing a show and Lionel Hampton messed up badly at the start and Roy worried that the song would self-destruct, then Lionel recovered and pulled off the most brilliant solo. Later Roy asked him how he could recover so well from what was looking like a train wreck and Lionel said he only listens to the good notes.

So the motivation driving his cleanup job wasn't panic or anxiety, but the simple joy of playing, and that got him back in the zone. I expect we all feel that slightly future-oriented, music-hungry, sense of "now" when we are in the zone, but if we don't know what it is we can't control it. Obviously some players can control it, result being they have crisp timing. If you're like me and not aware of it, then it's in the lap of the gods. Good days and bad days.

This kind of concentration appears to be a habit /skill that needs practice. I tried it tonight on the pad and found it not always easy to maintain, no doubt due to poor mental habits over many years. Something more to practice lol

Sorry, this is a long post from someone who's far from expert, but Wy is and his observations make intuitive sense to me.
 
Hey...

great you brought that thread back up Polly :)

First of all: I more or less just come out of the studio, recording the new EP / Demo and I think I am pretty happy about the outcome. The drums sounded fantastic and the engineer was really happy about the sound and my playing as well.

I think my microtime has improved quite a bit, but I cannot tell you for sure why that is. I guess that at the time I posted the thread I was overly aware of the issue and therefore making it more of an issue than it was.
Back then I was in a strong practise phase (6-10 hours daily during vacation) and that just messed with my head.

Today I am way more relaxed about things, don't practise more than 1-2 hours daily (just don't have time to do more to be honest) and never on weekends. Also, I am gigging heavily. Real heavily.

So the thing is, that my overall mindset seems to have transcended into my playing somehow (wow.... that's the most esotheric sentence I ever wrote on this board). For somes strange reason I have a real positive attitude towards my playing lately that I never had before. I am constantly thinking that I kick ass while still being aware of my weak spots. But somehow, these weak spots don't seem to matter any more. It's really hard to describe this without sounding arrogant, so sorry if I do.

It seems to be an attitude thing. Just two days ago I played a gig for around 300 people in a real small club - so it was packed. After the gig a guy came to me, gave me a friendly knock on the shoulder and just shook his head in what seemed like absolute disbelieve. Things like that never happened to me 12 months ago, allthough the show and my drumming were pretty much the same. But what has changed is the way I feel about everything I play and people seem to relate to that.


I completely and utterly stopped practising and caring about any technique. It just doesn't make any sense to me now. Whenever I see a thread here about speed and all these other "cool" things, I almost feel sorry for these people. Maybe it's easy for me to say that because I must have spent thousands of hours on technique in the past and probably have the kind of technique that many (younger) guys are dreaming about, but there certainly is more to it than that.

Growing up / maturing maybe? I don't really know.

Also: I am really confident and happy about the band as well. Everytime we play it just makes me feel great and even if people don't like it I don't really care because I love it and that's all that is important to me. What's great though, is that most people we play for like it as well.

What Polly said about a dog chasing it's own tail seems to be a spot on observation. When you stop worrying and start letting things happen seems to be when the problem vanishes.

Hopefully this is helpfull to someone out there. Just stop worrying and let things happen. Get out of your head out of your own way - everything will become much easier.
 
Thanks for coming back on this, Lutz. Great stuff. Every now and then there's a thread that hits the crux of what we're trying to do, and I feel this was one of them.

I'm sure no one who's heard your playing would have considered your "kick ass" comment arrogant. It strikes me as very sane - if you create something beautiful, why deny yourself the joy of it just because it's not perfect? We shouldn't need to beat ourselves up in order to maintain a To Do list. Appreciation need not equal complacency.

Great to gain pleasure from your playing after all those hard yards you put in instead of beating yourself up like a frustrated golfer. I guess that phase was a growth thing you needed to go through ... maybe what we all need to go through at some time?

In another thread on a related topic Larry suggested my issue was mental too because he knows I've played good time (by my standards) before so there's no reason other than sickness or tiredness that I can't always do it.

It seems that once you've done the work then that relaxed and happy Lionel Hampton attitude is the ticket.
 
This might seem a little newbie but this really helped my abilty to place notes where i want. Playing to recordings locking in with the track, also playing with a drum machine. Recording yourself playing the along analyse and try again, and again and again. The thing is here is that you are locking in with different feels. Im sure this will help you as it did me.
 
Searched this thread out after Polly was talking about microtiming and the Lionel Hampton quote in another thread.

The first thing I though reading though it was the difference between driving the bus and being a passenger. Playing with a band, you are (or can) drive the bus. The feel and groove can be put down where you want it. While playing with a metronome, there is a sense of following. Listening for it and trying to anticipate when it's going to hit. The more you concentrate on the metronome, I think the easier it is to wait for it and react a split second later. Polly had mentioned this also in terms of learning to play by playing along with records. Counting subdivisions where there is no noise from the metronome takes back some of it. By concentrating on those, an internal clock get set up, just as when you are playing free with a band.

The other part is the kick ass part. There's a book out by Philip Tsubo called Zen Guitar where he talks about shouting at the waves. Meaning, playing every note with conviction, as if it was the only thing that mattered and would change the course of nature. One of the things that separates the great players is that you sense that they mean every thing they play in a musical way. Not that it is following some unheard metronome (although the time may be dead on, and they may even be listening to a click), but that they are putting the notes where they want them, as Toby says.

The bigest part is listening and comparing. Having a sound in your head and doing whatever it takes with your limbs to have the sound in the air match what you hear in your head. Let the sound in your head drive.
 
Good comments, Aeolian. Like the bus analogy.

I think the best benefits of of metronome practice are informing you of how a pattern grooves when played evenly and also to create muscle memory when locked in. I don't feel it helps much if you're full of nerves and adrenaline or if bandmates are sitting well on top of the beat trying to pull things forward.

My band was recording on the weekend and I was unhappy with the unevenness of the tempo even though I've played that beat to a metronome dozens of times. The engineer said he thought it was ok and showed me that take#1 was 2m 52s long and take#2 was 2m 52.8s. On paper (screen) that looked good but those fluctuations were there - and not to ideal effect either.
 
We as drummers always find something about our playing that needs to be improved. No drummer out there is perfect, pro and amateur. When I record my practices I listen for things like being smooth and fluid, dynamics. I have done a lot of recording sessions, what I strive for when recording is making sure every note played is constant ( hitting the drum in the same spot every time ) you will know your timing is dead on when you can't hear the click when you are playing. When you play with a wavering tempo and your notes are not constant, that's an engineers worst nightmare. It makes it very difficult to mix and edit. When playing live thats a different story, I just try to put as much feel and emotion as I can and have a great time. Practicing with a metronome is a must but its not the cure for all of our technical issues. I find that focusing on staying as relaxed and loose as possible in what ever situation I am drumming in. There are so many threads about playing fast and how to get chops like JoJo Mayer in a week. Learning how to stay relaxed and loose is the most important thing to learn and can be difficult. I used to sit and listen to myself and over analise every thing I did. Then it gets in your head and you start to play with fear of messing up. Once I grew up and learned to just let go and play, a lot of things start to fall in place like micro timing ( micro management ) . Great thread, thats my two cents for what ever it's worth to anyone
 
I just stumbled onto this thread and read it from top to bottom. What a great discussion. I've been searching for a discussion about this topic but I guess I wasn't searching for the right words. Microtiming! Yeah, I never thought of that. But, of course, that describes the subject perfectly.

This is very topical for me as I've been doing a lot of recording recently and fretting over the results. The imperfections in my timing, the space between beats and the internal dynamics are something I can get to obsessing over at times. I'm in the same boat as a lot of others in that other people, including musicians, don't hear the flaws in my playing that bother me. In my worst moments, I have trouble enjoying the music we're making because the imperfections ruin it for me.

More than one person on this thread has commented that our ears can develop faster than our skills. I really think this is true, and recognizing this can help us cope with it. We're not imagining the imperfections we hear in our own playing, but we may be the only ones who notice or care about them, even when our audience includes other musicians. I tend to share the OP's sentiment that I want to put the beats where I want them, regardless of whether others notice my flaws or not; it's a matter of being a perfectionist and knowing that the only way to really be a master is to master these things. I think it's good to always want to get better and set high goals. But when it ruins our enjoyment of playing music and nobody else can hear it, we've probably taken it a bit too far.

The guitarist in my band owns all of our recording equipment and he records other bands as well. He has been telling me that I've gone overboard in being critical about my drum tracks. He reminded me that we only tend to hear these types of problems in our own playing and that those flaws exist in the work of others but we don't let them get in the way of enjoying someone else's music. To prove a point, he once mixed up one of my drum tracks with those of another drummer he's been recording and played them for me. I remarked how much I liked them and how I needed to get my playing to that level before we recorded again. When I found out one of the tracks was mine, I was floored; I didn't notice the problems, I just enjoyed the sound and feel of the drums. But after I found out? I started hearing microtiming problems and it kind of ruined it for me again.

I guess what it boils down to is that I know the issues are there and need to be worked on. But instead of getting down about it, I think the trick for me is to keep a positive attitude while knowing I'm going to be an eternal student; it's as much a psychological battle as a physical one. For me, it's just a challenge not to lose patience over the fact that I'm always going to be working on improving something, and that that's okay. There's no reason not to enjoy playing music in the meantime.

Reading that others go through the same thing brings me some comfort that I'm not the only one. And the posts here are really intelligent and articulate so I've taken a lot out of this discussion.
 
8Mile said:
To prove a point, he once mixed up one of my drum tracks with those of another drummer he's been recording and played them for me. I remarked how much I liked them and how I needed to get my playing to that level before we recorded again. When I found out one of the tracks was mine, I was floored; I didn't notice the problems, I just enjoyed the sound and feel of the drums. But after I found out? I started hearing microtiming problems and it kind of ruined it for me again.
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even though i 100% relate to this, reading that paragraph blew my mind.
the way our brain works is amazing....not always in a good way i guess.


edit: even though it IS good if we want to become great drummers. i believe every one of the greats was extremely harsh on himself, and probably still is, in terms of technique, timing etc.
 
first off id like to say i like the patterns ur puttn together and u really r one hell of a drummer but i think ur trying to hard

somtimes when i struggle with somthn i stop "trying' to do it" and just "do it" lol if that makes any sense to u

the type of music u play i dont think requires such perfect "microtiming" as much as just feeling and i know u have great feeling i can hear it but i think ur trying so hard that its hindering u

id say record a track and just clear ur mind !dont count! and just feel what ur playn even play the drum part different if thats what ur feeling have fun and dont act serious about it

mayb ull like it better mayb u wont but it wont hurt to try
 
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