the Dualist debate...

ledzeppelins666 said:
I consider it cheating. I have played around with it. I play a double-pedal, and I sometimes think it chokes the head. This piece of crap when playing at a fast enough speed makes the bass drum sound like it is stuffed with pillows to the very top.

How can it choke the bass drum when the twin beaters hit the head in the same way that a double pedal does? I have tried one, and it "sounded" no different to a normal double pedal.

There are advantages, I would like to throw some double pedal stuff in to what I play, occasionally, but I'm more concerned about the feel and patterns on the hi-hat. If I were to go down that route I would certainly consider getting one of these for that purpose only, my other choice is pearls eliminator, normal double pedal feel allows you to do different things, like the triplets that were mentioned earlier.

So as for the cheating issue... I don't think so, as it's possible to do things that aren't possible with a normal double pedal.

But for the time being I'm more than happy with my stock pearl P120-P
 
altered_beast said:
Try to find a groove in black metal. Most of that stuff is pretty fast.

True I agee there., but I think metal is the eception where using a bass petal is a norm and not "cheating" as some seem to think. As some of the speeds played in metal is just not possible on a single petal. The speed kinda is the groove in metal. I like the idea of the small duelist pedal as it takes up less space but does the same thing as a double petal.

The 3 beater pedal seems overkill to me.
 
Jay.B. said:
How can it choke the bass drum when the twin beaters hit the head in the same way that a double pedal does? I have tried one, and it "sounded" no different to a normal double pedal.

There are advantages, I would like to throw some double pedal stuff in to what I play, occasionally, but I'm more concerned about the feel and patterns on the hi-hat. If I were to go down that route I would certainly consider getting one of these for that purpose only, my other choice is pearls eliminator, normal double pedal feel allows you to do different things, like the triplets that were mentioned earlier.

So as for the cheating issue... I don't think so, as it's possible to do things that aren't possible with a normal double pedal.

But for the time being I'm more than happy with my stock pearl P120-P

Very true. If you use a double pedal, you will have to spend a lot of time to get your left foot to do what your right foot already does well, and you will have limited use for it. I like my Duallist because I can put my right-foot skills to work and weave the hi-hat or foot percussion into the groove.

A Duallist allows you to do some things a double pedal cannot and a double pedal allows you to do some things a Duallist cannot and a both of them allow you to do things a single pedal cannot. It's as simple and as complicated as that.

www.terrasonus.com
 
At the GC drum off a couple weeks back, one guy had a duellist. It didn't seem like there were too many practical applications for the pedal. What he did do with it, was try to make kick parts seem fuller with more notes. This wasn't necessarily good, it was just more than a single pedal playing the same strokes.

I am not sure you'd want or use the duellist pedal outside of speed metal or similar music.
 
Synthetik said:
At the GC drum off a couple weeks back, one guy had a duellist. It didn't seem like there were too many practical applications for the pedal. What he did do with it, was try to make kick parts seem fuller with more notes. This wasn't necessarily good, it was just more than a single pedal playing the same strokes.

I am not sure you'd want or use the duellist pedal outside of speed metal or similar music.

I am not sure you'd want to base your opinion on it just from just that one example. In fact, it sounds like this person had trouble controlling it.

I've been playing one since March in my world fusion band, which is about as far from speed metal as you can get. It's exquisite for shuffles, ghost notes, funky phrases and of course the mindless dugga-dugga stuff.

Playing double bass with a Duallist on each - now THAT would be fast!

www.terrasonus.com
 
Deathmetalconga said:
I am not sure you'd want to base your opinion on it just from just that one example. In fact, it sounds like this person had trouble controlling it.

I've been playing one since March in my world fusion band, which is about as far from speed metal as you can get. It's exquisite for shuffles, ghost notes, funky phrases and of course the mindless dugga-dugga stuff.

Playing double bass with a Duallist on each - now THAT would be fast!

www.terrasonus.com

Yeah, that's the limit to my experiance with the duellist. The sonor giant-step twin effect might be a similar acting pedal. (rocking motion/double strokes)
 
Deathmetalconga said:
Playing double bass with a Duallist on each - now THAT would be fast!

www.terrasonus.com

Yea me and a mate were thinking of these sorts of ideas. We came up with the fastest pedal in the world, and the stupidest.

Imagine a dbl pedal, so one for each foot right.
then you know the sonor twin fx pedals, imagine the pedals being that. So a heel plate as well as a toe plate for each foot so thats 4 beaters then each plate has a dualist on it. so 8 beaters in total. YEAAAA!
 
Ok, if someone already said this and I didn't read it, sorry, it's a huge thread. But my friend and I debated this for about 2 hours a couple of weeks ago. He originally thought it wasn't cheating, I originally thought it was.

Basically, his point was that it's an innovation to make drumming easier and open up your playing style; he related it to Yamaha's Nouveau lug and the like. To the Nouveau lug I said that the pedal affects the way you play directly, whereas the Nouveau lug affects the way you set it up and only saves time, and while the pedal "saves time" (you could do the same number of strokes on a normal single pedal, it would just take longer), timing is important in drumming, but nobody cares if it takes you more time to set up your drums.

To his main argument, my point was that the pedal is innovation on the manufacturer's part, not the drummer's part, and since it's not a standard (eg you can't do what you can do on it on other pedals), that it's cheating. He countered this by saying that traditional double bass setups (2 bass drums/double pedal) are cheating, because the end result is the same: double bass effects. I said that traditional double bass is not cheating because it's using something that's already available to you (bass drums and single pedals) and just getting more of it (or in the case of a double pedal, emulating this effect). He said that double bass does the same thing as the duallist (double bass effects on a single drum), which it does not because it is not only emulating the effect but the actual playing style, and that you are still using your left leg; that you play double bass pedal/drums fundamentally the same: with both feet. Another point of his was that the duallist is a great innovation because it uses the upstroke. I told him that this the foundation of its cheating, because you can not utilize the upstroke like that on any other pedal, and that you really are not learning a new technique, just timing your upstroke. To illustrate my point, I said that if someone could develop a technique that would utilize the upstroke, then I would completely support it because it is innovation on the part of the drummer, not the manufacturer. As a reference, I pointed out that the heel toe, slide, and Jojo Mayer's techniques all emulate double bass effects on a single pedal, and that these are all innovations in technique.

This is basically how the argument went, and I was eventually able to convince him that the duallist is, in fact, a cheater pedal because it uses something that you could not use on any other pedal, and although it is a technical innovation, it is not a standard and will not become a standard, and since it is an innovation on the part of the manufacturer and not an innovation on the part of the drummer (such as heel toe, slide, and Jojo Mayer's techniques), it is not really innovative to playing drums (plus the concept has been around for at least 70 years anyway).
 
Ok, if someone already said this and I didn't read it, sorry, it's a huge thread. But my friend and I debated this for about 2 hours a couple of weeks ago. He originally thought it wasn't cheating, I originally thought it was.

Basically, his point was that it's an innovation to make drumming easier and open up your playing style; he related it to Yamaha's Nouveau lug and the like. To the Nouveau lug I said that the pedal affects the way you play directly, whereas the Nouveau lug affects the way you set it up and only saves time, and while the pedal "saves time" (you could do the same number of strokes on a normal single pedal, it would just take longer), timing is important in drumming, but nobody cares if it takes you more time to set up your drums.

To his main argument, my point was that the pedal is innovation on the manufacturer's part, not the drummer's part, and since it's not a standard (eg you can't do what you can do on it on other pedals), that it's cheating. He countered this by saying that traditional double bass setups (2 bass drums/double pedal) are cheating, because the end result is the same: double bass effects. I said that traditional double bass is not cheating because it's using something that's already available to you (bass drums and single pedals) and just getting more of it (or in the case of a double pedal, emulating this effect). He said that double bass does the same thing as the duallist (double bass effects on a single drum), which it does not because it is not only emulating the effect but the actual playing style, and that you are still using your left leg; that you play double bass pedal/drums fundamentally the same: with both feet. Another point of his was that the duallist is a great innovation because it uses the upstroke. I told him that this the foundation of its cheating, because you can not utilize the upstroke like that on any other pedal, and that you really are not learning a new technique, just timing your upstroke. To illustrate my point, I said that if someone could develop a technique that would utilize the upstroke, then I would completely support it because it is innovation on the part of the drummer, not the manufacturer. As a reference, I pointed out that the heel toe, slide, and Jojo Mayer's techniques all emulate double bass effects on a single pedal, and that these are all innovations in technique.

This is basically how the argument went, and I was eventually able to convince him that the duallist is, in fact, a cheater pedal because it uses something that you could not use on any other pedal, and although it is a technical innovation, it is not a standard and will not become a standard, and since it is an innovation on the part of the manufacturer and not an innovation on the part of the drummer (such as heel toe, slide, and Jojo Mayer's techniques), it is not really innovative to playing drums (plus the concept has been around for at least 70 years anyway).

Ahem, have you actually PLAYED a Duallist, or talked with anyone who has?

You need good right foot skills to play this pedal and control its movements. I've played one since March and it's totally changed my approach to the drumset. It's not harder than a double pedal, or easier. Just very different. And it's a kick in the pants to play! Yes, FUN, and I'm not afraid to admit it.

From my perspective, traditional double pedals are clumsy, inefficient and outdated and those who think The Duallist is cheating are insecure that all the time they put into double pedals doesn't amount to squat. With the Duallist and sufficient practice, I can do most of what a double pedal does. I put my hard-earned right-foot skills to immediate use and leave my left foot to do what it does best. As it is, I only need double beater capability about 10 percent of the time. I have better things to do than invest many hours in developing double pedal skills that I will use 10 percent of the time.

Plus, I don't have ROOM for a double pedal (see http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18719) - I have a foot-operated talking drum, a hihat and a percussion pedal for my left foot. A double pedal in that context is just a silly redundancy.

www.terrasonus.com
 
whether its cheating or not, i think there is one truth --

if you play a dualist, you may be able to impress other drummers with the sound you create, but you probably won't be able to impress them with the technique in which you made it.
 
whether its cheating or not, i think there is one truth --

if you play a dualist, you may be able to impress other drummers with the sound you create, but you probably won't be able to impress them with the technique in which you made it.

And that is why it will always be regarded as cheating, because the majority of drummers view it that way.
 
Ahem, have you actually PLAYED a Duallist, or talked with anyone who has?

You need good right foot skills to play this pedal and control its movements. I've played one since March and it's totally changed my approach to the drumset. It's not harder than a double pedal, or easier. Just very different. And it's a kick in the pants to play! Yes, FUN, and I'm not afraid to admit it.

From my perspective, traditional double pedals are clumsy, inefficient and outdated and those who think The Duallist is cheating are insecure that all the time they put into double pedals doesn't amount to squat. With the Duallist and sufficient practice, I can do most of what a double pedal does. I put my hard-earned right-foot skills to immediate use and leave my left foot to do what it does best. As it is, I only need double beater capability about 10 percent of the time. I have better things to do than invest many hours in developing double pedal skills that I will use 10 percent of the time.

Plus, I don't have ROOM for a double pedal (see http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18719) - I have a foot-operated talking drum, a hihat and a percussion pedal for my left foot. A double pedal in that context is just a silly redundancy.

www.terrasonus.com

as a wise man once said, it matters not whether its true -- its the perception of truth that really matters. Im sure you are going to impress every non-drummer that hears you play it. However i think if you are looking for kudos from other drummers on your dualist, you will only get that from other dualist players.

I think after 7 pages of this thread, that, at least, is apparent.
 
Any innovation that can help drummers play more interesting and fun stuff should be considered a good thing. My only problem with it is the slave beater. The fact that the pedal itself is moving the beater makes it very awkward, though I guess it could supply some ridiculous ghost notes if you were playing it right. If you claim to be the greatest pedal player in the world because you have a dualist, you're an idiot, but it can help with some cool tricky things. It might not what "the greats" used and maybe they really were that good, but I'm sure a lot of them would have loved to use it. They didn't have remote hats or triggers either, but they probably would have liked to

Hah not too sure about when triggers or remote hats came out so dont quote me on that

Also, this has been discussed because I remember making a similar argument
 
I'm going to say most of what I thought when I said the stuff earlier in this thread is wrong.

Really. The goal as the drummer (timekeeping aside) is to play for the band, as a musician. Not play as a drummer to music. Playing music. The way to achieve this is playing what fits the song, interlocking with the bass player and many other brilliant things Lutz or one of the wise sages could tell you about at great length. Not care if something is cheating or not. Programming drum sounds? No. Something that you don't have control of in terms of dynamics... I wouldn't call music. To me, music is very much in dynamics and how you play the note, perhaps more than what notes are played.

The Dualist. Are the dynamics able to be controlled? Is there real-time control over what is being played? Yes. So, in my books, the dualist is an innovation, a tool if you will, so acheive sounds that you cannot with a traditional double pedal. The traditional double pedal does seem a little archaic. It inhibits you if you seek to play something with the hihat closed. Deathmetalconga plays a lot of world music, and I'm damn positive there is a lot of appliction there. I know I personally do a lot of hihat 8th with the foot, and I ocasionally think of a little double pedal sticking that I can't play because of it's basic design.

A dualist I would like is one with which you could change the beater (left/right) with that foot doo-hickey instead of single/double mode. Two different bass drums in one! Again, I struggle to do so with a traditional double (unless it's an open hihat or a ride pattern, I've trained my left foot) as I have to move my right foot over to the left pedal, which is very unergonomic and uncomfortable. The change in feel between the sounds is quite large and significant.

The dualist is just another tool for achieving that sound that one seeks. Even if it is "cheating".
 
well, as far as i can see, freeing up your left foot is its sole benefit. And that is a big benefit -- im not down-playing that one at all. However i do not feel that the double kick pedal is archaic at all -- especially since there is more potential for control, power and dynamic with two feet controling two seperate pedals as opposed to one foot controlling one pedal in a down and up fashion. Personally i would rather rely on the downward stroke of my left foot then the upward stroke of my right -- and again, i am speaking from a point of view of control, power and dynamic.

Those that we all look up to in the drumming world (benny greb, carter beauford, neil peart, etc) use a traditional double pedal as opposed to a dualist. Carter Beauford has some of the most intricate high-hat work found anywhere. I guess what it comes down to is if the dualist was so great, why have not pro's picked up on them? Are they wasting their time with the traditional double pedal? I think not.

Again, i dont think i will ever see a day that the dualist is taken seriously. Partially because it conveys this whole "cheating" argument, partially because it is plastic in a "more metal is better" kick pedal world, partially because it did not come from an already respected brand in drums as a side idea in pedal design, partially because there is a big, dumb pink logo on the pedal.

Im sure my band would not blink an eye to me using a dualist -- and i do a lot of double-bass work. I dont use a dualist personally because i do not feel it would further my understanding of drumming and rhythm in the way i feel i need to understand it.

I would be happy listening to a drummer play with a band with a dualist -- it is really all about the music. But would i go up to the drummer and give him a high-five for his sweet kick drum chops after the show? No.
 
I'm not saying the double pedal is crap. Or I wouldn't have one (although I got it when I was (more of) an idiot). It does have wonderful uses.

But. I feel that the creativity is in some way altered by it's limitations. Yes, the way they use it is still musical, but wouldn't you agree that it would have a plethora of new patterns to play?

I'm just saying that the Dualist, in my opinion, is smarter in every way apart from the unnatural motion require to use it (usually, we hit things and they make a sound, not on the upstroke). It has 95% of the capabitilites (of the remaining 5%, not much is that useful) of the traditional double pedal (with applied practise), with the freeing of the left foot included.

I would believe that this unnatural motion and the daunting nature of re-learning everything would scare the pros away. And perhaps this 'cheating' deal that seems to be included might have something to do with it. It is also a relatively new design, and no famous or influential drummer has used one. After a really popular or influential/inspiring/innovative drummer really shows the potential of the pedal, I'd think it'd grow in popularity. Not the videos on the site, they seem to just show chugga-chugga cliche stuff, not some creative, innovative ideas.

I'd need some help from DMC on this one, but I'm guessing the dualist is a lot like a tambourine or an egg shaker. People say, "oh, that's easy. All you have to do is shake it". I dare you to try and get even 16ths on one of those without shuffling. It's nigh impossible on the first try, let alone within 10 minutes! Then throw in the fact that other people have to use a normal pedal, and voila; a recipe for "cheating". It is a task in itself (from reading DMC's posts) to learn the dualist. It would basically be like learning to play double pedal again.

So go and get an egg shaker and find out how hard it is!!! :)

Edit: Also, the hihat is a very versatile and sensitive instrument on it's own. The sensistivity and tone you can acheive with just a tiny movement of a small muscle makes a surprising impact on the overall feel. What about a hihat swing pattern and snare comping, but instead of throwing in syncopated single bass drum strokes ("bombing"), throw in a single stroke four with an accent on the last stroke (ghosted triplets preceding the "bomb"). How cool would that be?! Ok, ok. I'm a drum nerd...
 
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I'm not saying the double pedal is crap. Or I wouldn't have one (although I got it when I was (more of) an idiot). It does have wonderful uses.

But. I feel that the creativity is in some way altered by it's limitations. Yes, the way they use it is still musical, but wouldn't you agree that it would have a plethora of new patterns to play?

I'm just saying that the Dualist, in my opinion, is smarter in every way apart from the unnatural motion require to use it (usually, we hit things and they make a sound, not on the upstroke). It has 95% of the capabitilites (of the remaining 5%, not much is that useful) of the traditional double pedal (with applied practise), with the freeing of the left foot included.

Very well put. Here's some more perspective.

At first, people hit hollow logs with mastodon bones. I could imagine the howls of "cheating!!" when someone put a taper on a wood stick to get more bounce: "The stick is doing the work for you. It's not hard enough anymore." As we know, controlling stick rebound is a huge area of study. And for a Duallist player, controlling two beaters with one foot is the secret of this instrument.

On one hand, people say the Duallist is hard to control and awkward, and on the other hand they say it's cheating and a shortcut. You can't have it both ways. From another perspective, that just shows people don't really understand what this pedal is all about. People who have never even seen one have the strongest opinions on it.

Pros don't use it because they can afford to spend 8 hours a day practising their double pedals, even though they might need double pedals infrequently, and they get lucrative endorsement deals to play certain gear. I don't have that kind of time or influence on my creative process. The Duallist gives me double-beater options on tap whenever I need it, which isn't often, and I have my left foot totally free.

As for impressing other drummers, I put the audience first, my bandmates second and myself third. Other drummers that check out my set and pedals are amazed and impressed I get so many sounds from two feet.

www.terrasonus.com
 
At first, people hit hollow logs with mastodon bones.

Source?

I could imagine the howls of "cheating!!" when someone put a taper on a wood stick to get more bounce: "The stick is doing the work for you. It's not hard enough anymore."

As far as I can tell, that's more akin to changing the cam on a Pearl Eliminator than adding an extra beater that's indirectly activated by the upstroke.


On one hand, people say the Duallist is hard to control and awkward, and on the other hand they say it's cheating and a shortcut. You can't have it both ways.

Yes you can, it's hard to control and awkward because people are used to the pedal doing nothing on the upstroke, it's a shortcut/cheating because it allows you to do more than with a normal pedal with relatively little invested effort (learning to control the upstroke).

From another perspective, that just shows people don't really understand what this pedal is all about.

If it's not about having a beater hit on the upstroke, then what is it all about?

People who have never even seen one have the strongest opinions on it.

Though it is true that they have strong opinions, your desire to defend the pedal seems even stronger.

Pros don't use it because they can afford to spend 8 hours a day practising their double pedals, even though they might need double pedals infrequently, and they get lucrative endorsement deals to play certain gear.

That may be part of the reason, but you should take into account the fact that most drummers look down upon the duallist, so also consider the likelihood that many pro's think it's a cheater pedal, too, and even if they don't they know that many of their drummer fans would look down upon them because, as we all know, most drummers look down upon the Duallist. Besides, it looks like a toy because it looks mostly plastic; most pros want gear that looks pro.


I don't have that kind of time or influence on my creative process. The Duallist gives me double-beater options on tap whenever I need it, which isn't often, and I have my left foot totally free.

Since you don't have the time, and the Duallist is your answer, isn't that kind of like saying that it's a shortcut? Also note that you implied that pro's don't need it because they spend 8 hours a day practicing. Isn't that also like saying that it is a shortcut? Besides, if it works for you, then great, but it still won't change the fact that I and many other drummers think it's cheating. I'll listen to your music and enjoy it, but I, personally, will respect you less for it because you're not coming up with a solution on your own, you're enlisting the help of the Duallist. As you said, you don't have the time or influence to do it without the Duallist, so how is it not a "cheat" in that sense? What it all comes down to is that it's a supplement for your lack of ability on any other pedal (not that you're a bad drummer, but that really is what it comes down to...and if not then why don't you just use a normal pedal?)

As for impressing other drummers, I put the audience first, my bandmates second and myself third.

Well, then, why are you even arguing here?

Other drummers that check out my set and pedals are amazed and impressed I get so many sounds from two feet.

I can't say that I've heard you play, but honestly, I don't think I would be amazed if I saw a Duallist, because if your feet's repertoire really were quite so grand I would expect something like a Duallist and would only be amazed/impressed if I saw a normal pedal back there.
 
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