Now this makes sense :)

denisri said:
All great stuff..but payback and investment does not work. Not cost effective without government rebates and tax breaks. Solar is great, clean and wonderful. Good to be off the grid. The economics do not work. If it did every construction project would include solar.
Denis
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Because goodness knows we can't involve the government in trying to improve our futures, right?
 
BacteriumFendYoke said:
Because goodness knows we can't involve the government in trying to improve our futures, right?
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Oh, heck no. Didn't you get the memo? Everything about government is bad, everything about private corporations is good. Never mind the fact that the USA would be a far different place if we didn't have the federal highway system. Yeah, private industry was just itching to do that, right? The "invisible hand of the market" shares all the hallmarks of a religion.

And it's worthwhile to add that the economic analysis of solar, wind, etc. seldom takes into account the full costs. For example, it seems they never include the cost of carbon emissions accelerating climate change when analyzing oil, coal and natural gas. Oh wait, I forgot. Lots of those people don't believe that climate change is real. It's all a hoax perpetrated by rich scientists to get government funding. What was I saying about a religion...

As far as concentrating moonlight is concerned, the intensity of the full moon is about a half million times less than that of the sun. Therefore, the collector area would need to be about a half million times larger (assuming the concentrator is 100% efficient). That translates to around 7000 square feet to charge up one of those solar powered walkway lights.
 
JimFiore said:
Oh, heck no. Didn't you get the memo? Everything about government is bad, everything about private corporations is good. Never mind the fact that the USA would be a far different place if we didn't have the federal highway system. Yeah, private industry was just itching to do that, right? The "invisible hand of the market" shares all the hallmarks of a religion.

And it's worthwhile to add that the economic analysis of solar, wind, etc. seldom takes into account the full costs. For example, it seems they never include the cost of carbon emissions accelerating climate change when analyzing oil, coal and natural gas. Oh wait, I forgot. Lots of those people don't believe that climate change is real. It's all a hoax perpetrated by rich scientists to get government funding. What was I saying about a religion...

As far as concentrating moonlight is concerned, the intensity of the full moon is about a half million times less than that of the sun. Therefore, the collector area would need to be about a half million times larger (assuming the concentrator is 100% efficient). That translates to around 7000 square feet to charge up one of those solar powered walkway lights.
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No no no, put a giant set of mirrors on the moon that reflects the sunlight through lenses that can be pointed at solar collection stations. Think of it as large scale ant burning with a magnifying glass, only with a giant magnifying glass onto a solar collector.
 
JimFiore said:
Oh, heck no. Didn't you get the memo? Everything about government is bad, everything about private corporations is good. Never mind the fact that the USA would be a far different place if we didn't have the federal highway system. Yeah, private industry was just itching to do that, right? The "invisible hand of the market" shares all the hallmarks of a religion.
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I'd insert an animated .gif of clapping hands here, but I think it would violate forum rules and it wouldn't meet the 20 character minimum. So pretend I posted one, because this represents my frustration perfectly.
 
keep it simple said:
in my other life, I used to sit on various European Norm committees, & "well to wheel" calculations were always revealing. Don't even get me started on bioethanol!
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Don't let me stop you! I had a student who used to make biodiesel. He'd collect up all of the used fry oil from local restaurants and then process it. I understand that cane sugar ethanol in Brazil is fairly efficient, but then I've only read news reports. OTOH, from everything I've seen, the USA corn-derived ethanol takes as much energy to make as we derive from it so it's little more than a profit guarantee scheme for large agribusinesses like Monsato. Oh wait, I thought government involvement was bad. On second thought, never mind because this helps private corporations...
 
JimFiore said:
I understand that cane sugar ethanol in Brazil is fairly efficient, but then I've only read news reports. OTOH, from everything I've seen, the USA corn-derived ethanol takes as much energy to make as we derive from it so it's little more than a profit guarantee scheme for large agribusinesses like Monsato. Oh wait, I thought government involvement was bad. On second thought, never mind because this helps private corporations...
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Having a few guys gather up used oil & cleaning it up for vehicle use is a good thing, but the level of deforestation to accommodate ethanol crops is just another F&$*&^g nail in the planet's coffin. Why that's supported with subsidies I'll never know.

Without getting too deep, all the really interesting technologies rely heavily on fuelling infrastructure to gain consumer acceptance. It's not a technology barrier, it's a money barrier. There's no way private companies will fund that, & governments won't/can't spend the money, mainly because voters don't want to see their tax dollars pumped into something many perceive as supporting lifestyle choices rather than necessity. Communism occasionally has advantages if you really want to get something done on a big scale.
 
keep it simple said:
Having a few guys gather up used oil & cleaning it up for vehicle use is a good thing, but the level of deforestation to accommodate ethanol crops is just another F&$*&^g nail in the planet's coffin. Why that's supported with subsidies I'll never know.

Without getting too deep, all the really interesting technologies rely heavily on fuelling infrastructure to gain consumer acceptance. It's not a technology barrier, it's a money barrier. There's no way private companies will fund that, & governments won't/can't spend the money, mainly because voters don't want to see their tax dollars pumped into something many perceive as supporting lifestyle choices rather than necessity. Communism occasionally has advantages if you really want to get something done on a big scale.
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I was thinking the same thing about the Brazilian ethanol.

Yes, as you might know, they want to build a pipeline running north and south across the mid-west USA called the Keystone pipeline. It is supposed to run from the Canadian oil fields in Alberta to Texas refineries in the south. I've already worked on one that went from Alberta to Chicago. Best money I ever made in my life. I also worked on the natural gas lines in SW Pennsylvania. Good money was made there too. But the fact is, I felt dirty doing that kind of work. Granted, it paid the bills, but being a Liberal tree-hugging hippy from California, it just didn't sit right in my head.

Nowadays, people who don't support the pipeline are being accused of being anti-American and support reliance on foreign oil (Saudi oil). The only real solution is a clean solution, but I don't think change will come until mother nature forces a change in our lives.
 
As was eluded to earlier, vehicles used to run on steam and electricity before they ran on petroleum based fuels. A big issue was we didn't have the technology at the time to make these vehicles efficient.

For those interested in biofuels, the diesel engine was originally designed to run on peanut oil, but can run on basically any kind of oil that will combust under heat and pressure. Perhaps this is another reason to look at the hemp industry.

There is a trash removal company in Europe that operates an incinerator which is used to produce electricity to power their trash trucks. As long as people keep producing trash, these trucks will continue to run on electricity.

There are a ton of solutions available to clean up the planet, if everyone will just get on board with it is a whole different set of problems.
 
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