AudioWonderland
Silver Member
I am going to disagree with that. "Swing" does not define, and is not the only measure of skill behind a drum kit.
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I am going to disagree with that. "Swing" does not define, and is not the only measure of skill behind a drum kit.
opentune
Platinum Member
If we invert your sentence it basically says Neil Peart is not a good drummer, because "he can't swing". The latter statement itself a very subjective assessment or 'fact'.
These threads really devolve to some outlandish assessments of people.
TheHeelDrummer
Senior Member
Oh, I still appreciate NP for what he is and what he's contributed. This was simply a point on one particular issue.
Often songs are written almost on the fly. People get a song they never saw coming in the studio and before you know it, its laid down. You can't expect that to be the end all be all of the song. I understand Rush definitely did not go this path. It still doesn't mean that twenty years later the song, in my mind, should be at the exact same point as it was when it was written. I also understand a signature song that's crucial to a song.
Hewitt2, 95% of the people air drumming in the crowd don't have much comprehension of what they are air drumming and its very possible that unless it was a signature fill that they would not have any idea of differences.
I saw Rush years back and I was bummed out by what I heard. I would have loved to see them cut loose some, to give me something I haven't heard before, a new take on something old without bastardizing it. It's preference I guess. A bass player I played with saw the Eagles and was so thrilled that they stuck note for note to the originals. Personally, that wouldn't have been something I was thrilled by. I enjoy improvisation and when bands can masterfully alter things just enough that I feel like I heard something I haven't heard a million times before.
Hewitt2
Senior Member
Believe it or not I am a big Rush and Neil Peart fan and have been a few of their concerts and been lucky to meet him. He was very gracious and down to earth.
My point was that he can't swing. For that reason I will never consider him one of the greats. That's my opinion. Feel free to disagree but dismissing this as an outlandish assessment based on a subjective point of view is kind of missing the point. There are very few established "facts" in art, music included, as we all have personal opinions and who can play and who can't.
AudioWonderland
Silver Member
And Buddy couldn't play YYZ if his life depended on it. Is Philly Joe or Elvin Jones going to touch La Villa Strangiato?? That would be no. Frankly I doubt if the Gadd/Weckl/Robinsons of the world could really do it. They may play if the notes but there is more to it than that. Just like Neil plays the notes with Buddy's big band and its not quite there, they would have the same issue. Something not quite right
JosephDAqui
Silver Member
Well put man! Excellent point!
Each of the greats has a concentrated strength or mastery and we recognize them for it, so no one should really compare them based on one or many parameters. Going back to some basic ethics: is this really a competition or an art form? Is there anyone among us who is qualified to cast someone down who has obviously accomplished a lot? I'm thinking no, but the unfortunate thing I've found in this forum is that there are some people (not all) who are legends in their own minds - the "greats" mentioned in this thread don't behave that way (it was Weckl who pointed out that drumming is not a sport, but an art form).
pgm554
Platinum Member
They were interviewing the bass player from REO and he said before the power ballad hits ,they were more like the Allman Brothers with extended jams and a two hour show.
Once you hit the big time,it is note for note give the audience what they came to see in 40 minutes.
pgm554
Platinum Member
I once made that comment to Colaiuta about Gadd not being able to play metal drums and he pretty much said why couldn't he?
If you're a good drummer,there should be no reason why you can't.
pgm554
Platinum Member
Neil,outside of the Rush vehicle ,is a pretty mediocre drummer.
I heard him on Jeff Berlins Vox Humana and was thoroughly unimpressed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCD0jxWK5rQ
drummer-russ
Gold Member
I have been reading this thread off and on for a while. I seriously do not get the critique of drummers that are at the top of the music world such that among drummers we can identify them with one name.
It seems to me that these drummers found themselves, either by choice or circumstance, to achieve success in one genre or style. They dedicate their musical lives to that style and are criticized by others notably less successful. I don't care if Buddy couldn't lay down the funk. It does not diminish my opinion of his skills. To me it means he never took the time or had the situation that dictated or offered the right opportunity for him to become good at funk, or he just didn't like it. Doesn't matter.
We all need to recognize taste and genre preferences can taint our view of talent. That is not how I try to look at things.
And then some of you are putting some strange criteria in to evaluate them. The idea of whether any drummer changes his parts or plays them the same is not a measure of talent.
In my opinion based on skills, creativity, and execution NP is one of the best in my lifetime. I would refuse to offer who I think is the best, it is just not a discussion I see having value.
Ringo and Neil P are about as far apart in playing style as I can think of yet both provided us with drum parts that are solid technically, appealing within the music, and have garnered respect among fellow drummers, at least those not caught up in genre comparisons.
It seems to me that these drummers found themselves, either by choice or circumstance, to achieve success in one genre or style. They dedicate their musical lives to that style and are criticized by others notably less successful. I don't care if Buddy couldn't lay down the funk. It does not diminish my opinion of his skills. To me it means he never took the time or had the situation that dictated or offered the right opportunity for him to become good at funk, or he just didn't like it. Doesn't matter.
We all need to recognize taste and genre preferences can taint our view of talent. That is not how I try to look at things.
And then some of you are putting some strange criteria in to evaluate them. The idea of whether any drummer changes his parts or plays them the same is not a measure of talent.
In my opinion based on skills, creativity, and execution NP is one of the best in my lifetime. I would refuse to offer who I think is the best, it is just not a discussion I see having value.
Ringo and Neil P are about as far apart in playing style as I can think of yet both provided us with drum parts that are solid technically, appealing within the music, and have garnered respect among fellow drummers, at least those not caught up in genre comparisons.
opentune
Platinum Member
Sorry if I offended, yes of course its an opinion.
In my mind, its hard to believe a fan would have inserted 'any good drummer' in what you stated.
Sure 'the greats' differ from 'the goods'. My point is he was still worthy of being called 'good'.
davidbehrens3.14
Senior Member
I didn't mean to say I disrespected Buddy or Neil or anyone else. When I mentioned being put off by the fact that certain drummers are famous, it's generally that I don't particularly appreciate their personalities and don't like seeing talent being overblown; I still respect what they CAN do.
I also respect Buddy Rich as much as anyone, but I'll stand by what I said about him not being versatile. His big band playing is amazing. The big band he led was incredible. His bop playing is pretty good and his funk is pretty mediocre.
For all the chops and showmanship, I'm not sure if Buddy really should be the undisputed "greatest drummer ever." Honestly, I think though Buddy was a "greater" drummer, Louie Bellson was a BETTER drummer. I think he was more musical, tasteful, versatile, and had just as impressive chops. I have nothing against the GOOD things that people like Travis Barker do, but it still DOES bug me that punks like that are world-famous public figures and most people outside drumming communities haven't ever heard of Bellson.
Versatility is, in my opinion, a huge asset in a drummer. The only drummer that I'd consider really impressive in every style is Vinnie Colaiuta, but guys like Weckl, Gadd, J.R. Robinson, Simon Phillips, etc. have much wider ranges than many others (Also, DrumEatDrum, you mentioned those guys can't write, though Weckl has written or co-written almost everything on his bands' records, and Gadd has done a fair bit as well).
So back to Neil. We've established that he has no artistic range, which we have to settle on. That doesn't mean we can't respect his playing with Rush. The songs they have recorded are very interesting and his playing is great on them. But I will say, I also wish he would let the art breathe a little bit, and stop playing every single thing note-for-note. It seems like there are plenty of people with the opposite opinion, I just personally think it makes the creative entity of the music seem kind of dead.
I also respect Buddy Rich as much as anyone, but I'll stand by what I said about him not being versatile. His big band playing is amazing. The big band he led was incredible. His bop playing is pretty good and his funk is pretty mediocre.
For all the chops and showmanship, I'm not sure if Buddy really should be the undisputed "greatest drummer ever." Honestly, I think though Buddy was a "greater" drummer, Louie Bellson was a BETTER drummer. I think he was more musical, tasteful, versatile, and had just as impressive chops. I have nothing against the GOOD things that people like Travis Barker do, but it still DOES bug me that punks like that are world-famous public figures and most people outside drumming communities haven't ever heard of Bellson.
Versatility is, in my opinion, a huge asset in a drummer. The only drummer that I'd consider really impressive in every style is Vinnie Colaiuta, but guys like Weckl, Gadd, J.R. Robinson, Simon Phillips, etc. have much wider ranges than many others (Also, DrumEatDrum, you mentioned those guys can't write, though Weckl has written or co-written almost everything on his bands' records, and Gadd has done a fair bit as well).
So back to Neil. We've established that he has no artistic range, which we have to settle on. That doesn't mean we can't respect his playing with Rush. The songs they have recorded are very interesting and his playing is great on them. But I will say, I also wish he would let the art breathe a little bit, and stop playing every single thing note-for-note. It seems like there are plenty of people with the opposite opinion, I just personally think it makes the creative entity of the music seem kind of dead.
DrumEatDrum
Platinum Member
Actually, that's not what I said. I know those guys write (although one could say it's still not really what they're known for).
I said Ringo and Charlie Watts, Joey Kramer are in popular bands, but they don't write most/any of the songs that has made their respective bands top selling acts.
Sure, Ringo's written a few things, and had some success as a writer, but the Beatles were mostly known for the writings of John and Paul (and occasionally George). Kramer has like 10 co-writing credits, but none of them the big Aerosmith songs.
Neil, only the other hand, does contribute writing to most of the songs that has made Rush a stadium/multi-platinum selling band. And it's an aspect of his career he is known for.
davidbehrens3.14
Senior Member
I respect that ability he has, and his role as the lyricist for Rush. His potential shortcomings shouldn't take anything away from that.
M
Matt Bo Eder
Guest
OK. So if we all can respect these people for being good at what they do, what's the point of this discussion?
I think all of us (including me) know what our limitations would be and would steer ourselves into the good light of what we do do good. These huge artists have done that and it has paid off. More power to people who can find that niche and go for it. That's what its all about right? I'm not buying a ticket to see Rush improvise - I want what I came to hear. The Eagles are the best example of this as well - they do not try from what their fans want. Same with Kiss, and the Rolling Stones....heck, I love Stevie Ray Vaughn, but I never wanted to hear him play funk or big band jazz. So I don't hold to the "you're not complete unless you can do it all" idea - because basically nobody really is. I'm sure even people like J.R. Robinson know this, although there is a certain amount of bravado to the studio session cats that they project that they can do everything. But even if that were true, then that means they'd be out doing everything. And they don't do that.
I think all of us (including me) know what our limitations would be and would steer ourselves into the good light of what we do do good. These huge artists have done that and it has paid off. More power to people who can find that niche and go for it. That's what its all about right? I'm not buying a ticket to see Rush improvise - I want what I came to hear. The Eagles are the best example of this as well - they do not try from what their fans want. Same with Kiss, and the Rolling Stones....heck, I love Stevie Ray Vaughn, but I never wanted to hear him play funk or big band jazz. So I don't hold to the "you're not complete unless you can do it all" idea - because basically nobody really is. I'm sure even people like J.R. Robinson know this, although there is a certain amount of bravado to the studio session cats that they project that they can do everything. But even if that were true, then that means they'd be out doing everything. And they don't do that.
davidbehrens3.14
Senior Member
I don't know about that. Like I said, Vinnie is the closest to being able to do every single thing, and he's done tons of touring, along with a massive amount of studio credits. He's toured with Sting, Jeff Beck, Herbie Hancock, and Megadeth, to name a few.
I'm not saying Gadd, Robinson, Weckl, etc. can do EVERYTHING. They just have good artistic ranges, and I personally like that, and the fact that they DON'T do the same old thing in concert.
DrumEatDrum
Platinum Member
Vinnie is an outlier though. If we compare everyone to Vinnie, then we'd have to conclude most everyone else sucks, because very few come close to his mix of versatility and chops. I don't think Weckl can play rock to save his life, but I'd still gladly cut off my little toe with a rusty knife if I could have 1/2 his technique.
I don't get why people have to target ceertain other drummers so much. Buddy didn't play like George Kollias, George Kollias doesn't play like Papa Jo Jones, and Papa Jo Jones didn't play like Tommy Aldridge. And so what? They're all good at what they do/did and all made relevant contributions to the drumming community.
No one goes around slamming all these other drummers for not being everything to every one, but for whatever reason, when it comes to Neil and Ringo, people feel justified to slam them over and over and over again for not being as something as someone else. It makes no sense.
davidbehrens3.14
Senior Member
Once again, I was not trying to cast Neil's lack of versatility in a negative light. As I said, he is great in the prog context in which he plays, and we SHOULD appreciate him for that. All I meant is that he shouldn't be constantly thought of as the world's greatest drummer, even if there were such a thing. If he was remotely capable of playing swing, in my opinion, that would make him a better drummer. That's why I used the term "shortcoming." Because you guys seem to take everything as "slamming" on Neil, let me say it loud and clear:
Neil Peart is a great Prog drummer.
And that's fine.
P.S. -- I think Weckl's rock stuff with Oz Noy is pretty cool, if you'd consider it rock (funk maybe?).
Neil Peart is a great Prog drummer.
And that's fine.
P.S. -- I think Weckl's rock stuff with Oz Noy is pretty cool, if you'd consider it rock (funk maybe?).
GetAgrippa
Diamond Member
Neil Peart is an excellent rock drummer (I wouldn't criticize that), but watching him play with the Buddy Rich band he looked like a duck out of water playing big band and jazz.
Hewitt2
Senior Member
Ok. This looks like the "appeal to wealth" fallacy and the "sold xxx many records (the masses must be right)" argument...
Like the Simpsons said, "50 million smokers can't be wrong."
I suppose that artists who haven't had the benefit or luck of being in the right place at the right time are excluded?