Help a Dad out buying used set for son.

[Dr_Watso]

Thats a little a weird habit that you seem to have, to constantly try to prove yourself as being the expert here, by breaking down posts to each sentence and replying to each sentence as if we are in court here..

For my feeling you gave your opinion about 23 times in this thread and i gave mine..

Thats about that..

When I see bad advice, especially bad advice given to new players, I like to lay out exactly why it's bad advice rather than just being that guy who says "wrong" and moves on, since that's even less helpful than the bad advice I'm speaking against.

I've noticed you in particular like to be a bit of a contrarian when I make posts and I think you often argue just for the sake of arguing with me without thinking through your arguments or even being open minded that perhaps some of us here have more experience with these things. I sometimes teach new players and young kids and I see the mistakes that happen over and over.

So while that was a nice try at a personal attack, I'm not bothered by it. I'm here to talk drums, and I've always been one to be helpful with knowledge when I can pass it on, especially when that knowledge was hard-won through my own mistakes and the mistakes of those around me. I'll continue to be thorough in my responses because that's what I feel is most beneficial rather than just spouting opinions with nothing behind them.

 

[GetAgrippa]

Well let's see if I can provide something constructive, for a change, to the discussion. Took my iPhone and whacked on my ZBT 14 in crash vs Zil A thin crash 14in, the the 20 in (I think??)ZBT ride vs Zildjian K Constantinople Hi Bell Thin Ride, Low Cymbal 22 in. Now I added rivets to both ZBTs so it may have altered it so that has to be weighed. I had stated the rivets helped the 14 in crash but hell no nothing can save that LOL. Completely different cymbals sonically. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m6iajtndU8&feature=youtu.be

 

[oldskoolsoul]

..I've noticed you in particular like to be a bit of a contrarian when I make posts and I think you often argue just for the sake of arguing with me without thinking through your arguments or even being open minded that perhaps some of us here have more experience with these things..

..while that was a nice try at a personal attack, I'm not bothered by it. I'm here to talk drums, and I've always been one to be helpful with knowledge when I can pass it on, especially when that knowledge was hard-won through my own mistakes and the mistakes of those around me. I'll continue to be thorough in my responses because that's what I feel is most beneficial rather than just spouting opinions with nothing behind them..

That Watso..Exactly that arrogance behaviour is what i am completely allergic to..

I play drums almost 40 years out of which during 15 years i made my living as a drummer, had lessons from some of the best teachers in my country and i visited clinics/masterclasses from about every famous drummer you can think about..

Then what is exactly the reason that i have to hear from 'forum-expert' Watso that i only argue to argue and that i am only spouting opinions with nothing behind them..?

Edit.

I said what i had to say about those cymbals and i am not really interested anymore in wasting energy with useless discussions like this..

Lets move on..

 

[opentune]

The worst advice given to the Dad on this thread was to not buy that deal.
I hope he didn't listen to the naysayers. It's clearly an upgrade from the tiny black kit. For $400 it was a steal (throne, hardware etc...), and came with some cymbals that could be upgraded, pro cymbals or not.

 

[Darth Vater]

That Watso..Exactly that arrogance behaviour is what i am completely allergic to..

I play drums almost 40 years out of which during 15 years i made my living as a drummer, had lessons from some of the best teachers in my country and i visited clinics/masterclasses from about every famous drummer you can think about..

Then what is exactly the reason that i have to hear from 'forum-expert' Watso that i only argue to argue and that i am only spouting opinions with nothing behind them..?

Edit.

I said what i had to say about those cymbals and i am not really interested anymore in wasting energy with useless discussions like this..

Lets move on..

I find that ID'ing the purveyors of douchebaggery and adding them to my ignore list is very helpful. They're not hard to spot.

 

[Dr_Watso]

That Watso..Exactly that arrogance behaviour is what i am completely allergic to..

I play drums almost 40 years out of which during 15 years i made my living as a drummer, had lessons from some of the best teachers in my country and i visited clinics/masterclasses from about every famous drummer you can think about..

Then what is exactly the reason that i have to hear from 'forum-expert' Watso that i only argue to argue and that i am only spouting opinions with nothing behind them..?

Edit.

I said what i had to say about those cymbals and i am not really interested anymore in wasting energy with useless discussions like this..

Lets move on..

I guess we'll just have to deal with our mutual allergies. I wasn't even talking about me in this response. I see you do this pretty constantly, to lots of members here, not just me. If you've been playing 40 years and still think it's not important to have real cymbals before you go buy another drum kit, well... Also, with some of the discussions we've had regarding techniques I'm a little shocked you say you have this level of learning. Guess I'll take your word for it.

Cymbals are one place that should not be skimped on to the lowest levels. Get at least a real one and not a piece of stamped sheet metal that basically just looks like a cymbal and sounds/plays more like a trash lid. One of the best pieces of advice for a new drummer.

 

[Dr_Watso]

The worst advice given to the Dad on this thread was to not buy that deal.
I hope he didn't listen to the naysayers. It's clearly an upgrade from the tiny black kit. For $400 it was a steal (throne, hardware etc...), and came with some cymbals that could be upgraded, pro cymbals or not.

I really didn't see a deal that was that great in comparison to the similar deals I see on craigslist all the time... The same budget could benefit the kid so much more with real cymbals to play. This is so weird. The drums just don't matter that much... Spend a few bucks on heads and nobody will care.

 

[Old Dog new Cans]

I really didn't see a deal that was that great in comparison to the similar deals I see on craigslist all the time... The same budget could benefit the kid so much more with real cymbals to play. This is so weird. The drums just don't matter that much... Spend a few bucks on heads and nobody will care.

I'm curious, is the last time you're going to explain this? I figured 2 or 3 was already enough. Wow They got it. It's your opinion. Do you need a "GOOD JOB" sticker or something?

Hilarious

 

[Dr_Watso]

I'm curious, is the last time you're going to explain this? I figured 2 or 3 was already enough. Wow They got it. It's your opinion. Do you need a "GOOD JOB" sticker or something?

Hilarious

You giving out stickers? Or do you have them all on your ZBT cymbals to improve the sound? You must be an endorser.

Incidentally, no it's not the last time I'll be explaining this. Unfortunately, these pieces of trash pretending to be instruments are sold at high volume to people who don't know better by salesmen or mis-guided idea that it's not important in the process of learning how to play to have at least decent quality cymbals.

It's a very common mistake new drummers make and I'm more than happy to be the broken record.

 

[GetAgrippa]

Oh come on fellas it's been a good thread and it's about the original post. What struck me is his 11 year old son might be reading this thread. If so I hope he appreciates people liked the kit. I think (??) the general consensus was buy the kit, a general consensus the cymbals ok for a beginner but there are lots better. Our moderator moderated given example of pros endorsing the ZBTs-good job GruntersDad. I posted a video of questionable value but nonetheless. I'd leave it at that regardless of all the different well-seasoned or reasoned arguments. No need to get all personal either-let's have a beer summit LOL.

 

[BertTheDrummer]

That's simply not helpful information to the OP, though. Rather than confuse the issue by selectively naming the very small amount of B8 pies that aren't garbage, I just made a generalization that if you buy b20, alloy it's harder to get crap.

I disagree. How is simply stating that professional level B8 cymbals from Paiste are "real" cymbals and aren't junk not helpful information? It is completely applicable to giving information to the OP about cymbals in general. The last thing I want to convey is that B20 = Good and B8 = Junk. there are plenty of junky B20 cymbals out there and plenty of good B8 cymbals out there. I was just commenting on what I believed to be an overgeneralization on your part. I was in the dark for years about Paistes because someone told me a long time ago that B20 was good and B8 was junk. Then I realized a number drummers of bands that I listened the most all used Paiste 2002, Giant Beats, or Rudes and they were all B8s. Are they for everything? No, but they have a particular sound that is integral to the history of music.

No need to get all personal either-let's have a beer summit LOL.

Who's buying the first round?

 

[Dr_Watso]

I disagree. How is simply stating that professional level B8 cymbals from Paiste are "real" cymbals and aren't junk not helpful information? It is completely applicable to giving information to the OP about cymbals in general. The last thing I want to convey is that B20 = Good and B8 = Junk. there are plenty of junky B20 cymbals out there and plenty of good B8 cymbals out there. I was just commenting on what I believed to be an overgeneralization on your part. I was in the dark for years about Paistes because someone told me a long time ago that B20 was good and B8 was junk. Then I realized a number drummers of bands that I listened the most all used Paiste 2002, Giant Beats, or Rudes and they were all B8s. Are they for everything? No, but they have a particular sound that is integral to the history of music.

Fair enough I suppose. I do know and have played some of the good b8 stuff, and the alloy alone is only one aspect. As you may have figured out, my over-generalization is due to the fact that within b20, to my knowledge there aren't any stamped sheet cymbals, which isn't the case for b8; for someone new it's just an easy thing to remember rather than try to figure out which b8 lines have more work put into them and sound better. I will state categorically there are quite a few b8 lines that sound great, and even other lesser known alloys that have their place, too.

Who's buying the first round?

Me, apparently. This particular issue is really hard for some to understand and on the surface it is hard to see especially when you're newer to this stuff. My personal epiphany on this issue way back was a huge eye opener, and boy am I ever sorry about how much wasted time and money I put into those toy cymbal lines. You gain so much expressiveness, even as a new drummer.

 

[mrfingers]

Go to Dale’s drums shop in h-burg. They’re very helpful and also sell used drums.

 

[Old Dog new Cans]

You giving out stickers? Or do you have them all on your ZBT cymbals to improve the sound? You must be an endorser.

Incidentally, no it's not the last time I'll be explaining this. Unfortunately, these pieces of trash pretending to be instruments are sold at high volume to people who don't know better by salesmen or mis-guided idea that it's not important in the process of learning how to play to have at least decent quality cymbals.

It's a very common mistake new drummers make and I'm more than happy to be the broken record.

I actually don't own ZBTs. But I know there are worse cymbals out there. They're easy to upgrade, and you never know, sometimes you get lucky with the lower level box sets and get some decent sounding cymbals.

I don't think you need to have "player" level cymbals, unless you're a player. This young man is going to have many years to grow into new equipment. I believe the Dad is trying to be economical in his search as well. Maybe YOU should just buy him the cymbals YOU want him to have and be done with it?

 

[Gottliver]

The kids 11. Zildjian ZBTs are fine. Its a great deal. Buy em. Thread closed.

 

[toddmc]

The kids 11. Zildjian ZBTs are fine. Its a great deal. Buy em. Thread closed.

Sounds good to me (although it has been entertaining).

How does a seemingly innocent question over what kit should a dad buy his son turn into a blood feud over cymbal choices? Only on the interwebs : )

 

[oldskoolsoul]

..Also, with some of the discussions we've had regarding techniques I'm a little shocked you say you have this level of learning..

I assume you are referring now to that thread where you kept on showing that you had no clue about the existence of Full-Moeller, Half-Moeller and Low-Moeller strokes, the difference between them and how Low-Moeller could be (which is different than 'mandatory should be') applied when playing fast one handed 16th's on the hihat..

Yes, ofcourse i remember that thread, we are still laughing about that one here at my place..lol..

Forgive me for getting a little sarcastic, but i am out of this discussion..I mean, you even made me bring up Moeller now, in a thread about a father, a son and a drumset upgrade..

Things should not get more crazy than that..

 

[GretschedHive]

Dear JpeBD:

No pressure, but you're killin' me here, man! Where we at on kit acquisition?

 

[TK-421]

As much as my better judgement tells me to keep out of this one, there is another option that could work out very well. The OP can buy the original Pearl kit in question with all the hardware and ZBT cymbals for $450 (I think that's what he said the seller was willing to go down to), plus buy this used but perfect condition Zildjian S Performer 5-piece cymbal pack for $360 shipped.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Zildjian-S390-S-Performer-5-Piece-Cymbal-Pack-Set-Used/173733724790?epid=2254971257&hash=item2873564276:g:Y7sAAOSwcUBYHLKp:rk:20f:0

No, the S cymbals aren't B20 (they're B12, so they're a step up from B8s), but they sound surprisingly good for budget cymbals. The OP even said he checked them out at a store and liked how they sounded. And they're definitely good enough for an 11-year-old beginner. Then sell the ZBTs that came with the set on CL or eBay for roughly $150 (I'm thinking $60 for the hats, $40 for the crash and $50 for the ride). That comes out to about $660 out of pocket in the end, depending on what the ZBTs actually sell for. That's barely more than the seller was originally asking for, and the kid will have a great package for someone his age, with nice drums, hardware and cymbals.

Once you factor in the OP can sell the old kit for maybe $100 for the whole lot, then we're only talking about $560 out of pocket once it's all over. That would be a great deal.

 

[Gottliver]

As much as my better judgement tells me to keep out of this one, there is another option that could work out very well. The OP can buy the original Pearl kit in question with all the hardware and ZBT cymbals for $450 (I think that's what he said the seller was willing to go down to), plus buy this used but perfect condition Zildjian S Performer 5-piece cymbal pack for $360 shipped.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Zildjian-S390-S-Performer-5-Piece-Cymbal-Pack-Set-Used/173733724790?epid=2254971257&hash=item2873564276:g:Y7sAAOSwcUBYHLKp:rk:20f:0

No, the S cymbals aren't B20 (they're B12, so they're a step up from B8s), but they sound surprisingly good for budget cymbals. The OP even said he checked them out at a store and liked how they sounded. And they're definitely good enough for an 11-year-old beginner. Then sell the ZBTs that came with the set on CL or eBay for roughly $150 (I'm thinking $60 for the hats, $40 for the crash and $50 for the ride). That comes out to about $660 out of pocket in the end, depending on what the ZBTs actually sell for. That's barely more than the seller was originally asking for, and the kid will have a great package for someone his age, with nice drums, hardware and cymbals.

Once you factor in the OP can sell the old kit for maybe $100 for the whole lot, then we're only talking about $560 out of pocket once it's all over. That would be a great deal.

Why? The kids 11!!!! It doesn’t matter!!! Our cymbal sensibilities don’t apply here. It’s all about context. Plus the S line ain’t worth $350. Maybe $12. $25 at most.