greatly need help from experienced drummers

It's weird that he doesn't hear it. How can anyone not hear it? Even a docile plodder like I am couldn't miss screwups like that from a mile away. Has he heard recordings of it happening?

Maybe get him to skip the fills until he can get it right? The song would sound better that way.

Or ... maybe it's just his avant garde way of crossing the bar line to add tension? It sure sounds like he's adding tension to the rest of the group :)
 
i just read this thread for the first time. this is a bizarre story! when i was first learning i would sometimes lose the beat in a fill and come out upside down, but even then i wouldn't go on playing like that. i'd fix the beat and get back on track with everyone else.

i would say that if he's having trouble staying on track during fills then he should try playing simpler fills. and he needs to get away from this idea of playing every song exactly the same note for note, like an unbroken chain of notes as you say. like you said, if he misses a note then the whole song is thrown off track. that's completely unacceptable, and in my opinion it's just plain weird.
 
Ekloot,

I get that he's your friend, but the dude is not a good drummer. If you really have aspirations of making something real happen with this band, it sounds like it's not going to happen with this guy. What's going to hurt your relationship more: moving on now, or waiting until you guys have a whole big plan together, then having to ditch him? Just to clarify:

- He can't hear when he flips the beat, something that most people, even non-musicians, can hear.
- He plays with a click, and wants to break away from it, but hasn't even tried to yet.
- He doesn't listen to the rest of the band, to the point where he doesn't even have you guys in his monitors (what happens if something goes wrong live, and you guys have to adjust?)
- He plays the same fills time and again, and yet still manages to mess them up so badly that he flips the beat.
- He can't play simple beats other than the ones he already knows, and screws them up for months before getting them down.
- He clearly has horrible technique. You don't destroy equipment that quickly with anything better than horrible technique.

All of those issues after 14 years of drumming? Dude either doesn't practice, or just isn't meant to be a drummer. Either way, all of those are issues that more than a year behind the kit should have completely cleared up.
 
Well, you're a very good friend for keeping him in the band. The best advice here so far-no more metronome, go cold turkey. I didn't bother posting this originally because I thought maybe there is a sequencer or something he needs to play with. If that was the case, or if he outright refuses to stop rehearsing with a metronome, then definitely program a downbeat in the click, and make it louder than the quarter notes.

Also, a contributing factor in cracked cymbals can also be clamping them down too tightly.
 
Why are so many people using clicks during performance and band practice these days?

I would tell your drummer that the click is great for practicing by himself - but to keep it away from the band. A band should be able to breathe and change tempos etc... when needed. And a good drummer should be a good timekeeper without a metronome. The drummer is supposed to be the band's metronome. If you can't keep time without a click - then it's time to go back to the 'shed.

Even in the studio I find clicks incredibly distracting... takes me right out of the song.
 
I think the problem with showing him his mistake is that it sounds as if it is infrequent and never at the same spot of a particular song. Perhaps recording all of practices will help this and you can point it out later when it happens.

I think the idea of a click that accents the one or actually counts 1 through the particular time signature you are playing could be the key as well.

What he doesn't seem to realize is basically the fill he is doing is more or less extending the time signature of that measure one entire beat. Putting it in those terms may make him realize what a big deal of what he is doing.
 
you cant solve these kind of things by talking or explaining
sounds like the guy has no rhythmic sense whatsoever, pretty big problem for a musician if you'd ask me
i know a guy who plays the guitar for like 5 years.. he has some amount of technique and he can obviously physically control the instrument, but his lack of rhythmic ability completely prevented me from being able to jam with him, even the simplest things (like you said about adding a snare 16th before the crash). what seems like the most obvious simple syncopation to us throws him off. the guy is dyslexic so it might have something to do with the problem.
from wikipedia:
symptom of dyslexia - difficulty with time keeping and concept of time

you describe your drummer like a total beginner - zero understanding of what he's actually doing, but just playing a beat with the help of a metronome, doing the exact same fill every time. there is nothing musical in this, i think you need a replacement

hmm what i was trying to say in this whole post --> showing him his mistake will solve nothing, his perception of the whole thing is just flawed. if its not fixed after 14 years it probably never will be
 
Playing with a metronome is what you do in your first couple years of learning the instrument. Playing to a click with a band is absolute nonsense to me. An intermediate to advanced drummer should be relying entirely on his/her "internal" timing and feeling. For the most part, all of the musicians in the band need to be adjusting and compensating all the time to a reasonable degree but the drummer is the time keeper and the backbone on the tempo.

The idea that the band should adjust when this guy ends upside down on a fill is balogna. he's gotta fix that.

Give him some time to change his ways. Don't sugar coat it and be honest with the guy and insist that he listens to the band and loses the metronome. If he can't make significant progress in a month or two it's time for you to make the painful decision to either leave the band or find a new drummer. That is if your serious about all this. If it's just 4 guys in a basement making music and playing out at bars now and then ... as long as the music still sounds reasonably good and people react well .. paying with good friends is more fun any day than playing with egomanics that can play really well.
 
i still play to a click, but only when i'm practicing by myself. i never play to a click during band practice or band performances. the only reason i can think of to that is if you were using pre-programmed electronic loops or tracks during your performances.
 
In his defense, I think I have to clear up a couple things...he does in fact normally realize when he gets upside down on the beat...he just says that he missed a hit during the fill and then is a beat off and got upside down. My problem with that explanation is that when I play the drums (and i do in a separate band), if I screw up a fill...I still know in my head where the next measure exactly begins because I can hear all the other instruments around me and my own gut feel also knows where the next measure exactly begins...no matter if I missed a hit or not.

Also, he doesn't just have only one fill that he plays over and over again...I mean that when he maps out a song...each fill during the song is usually different, but he memorizes each one hit for hit and knows exactly where each one goes. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. I think the problem is that since the fills seem to be more memorized instead of "felt"...then when he misses a hit or something, the memorization chain get's thrown off and he gets upsidedown on the beat. If you play by gut feel and with your natural sense of the rhythm then this won't happen obviously. Once again, in his defense...his drum parts are very fitting for the songs and fill out the music nicely. He just needs to rely on natural rhythm to play them instead of memorization and counting.

Also, most of the time he does patch my amp and the bass player's amp into his in-ear monitors...although he doesn't have the 2nd guitarist's amp patched in there or the vocals. Just at that last show he didn't have anybody patched into his in-ear monitors...and occasionally we'll forget to plug our amps into the cable that patches us in...although it bothers me that he sometimes doesn't mention when this happens...almost like it doesn't make too much difference to him if he can hear us clearly or not. I get the feeling that even when we're patched in he may be "hearing" us but not listening as closely as he really should.

The other thing that is strange is that he and I were in a previous band together and that's when he began relying on the metronome. In that band, I rarely remember him getting upside down on the beat. It would happen every once in a while but it was much more infrequent. I get the feeling that he's become way less reliant on his natural sense of rhythm and replaced it with a metronome click. He only started using the metronome during practice and gigs 2 years ago in that last band we were in because the front man in that band made him...the front man said the drummer's sense of time was too sloppy so he forced him to use the metronome. Before that, the drummer never used one at all...but he said he was way more prone to random speed ups and slow downs before the metronome. I've rarely ever played with him when he doesn't have the metronome...even when we're just jamming...so I don't know how good his natural sense of time and rhythm really is.

I'm definately going to take all of the advice from this forum and try forcing him to dump the metronome for a while or getting him to use one with a down beat at least...and try getting him to understand how important it is to closely listen to the other instruments playing. I'll bring up a lot of the other points that you guys have made as well. He's definately a talented guy in many ways...he just relies on all the wrong stuff to play music. Hopefully, it is a situation that can be fixed because i just don't see these kinds of amateur issues in professional bands out there...and we want to be a professional band.

Oh, and we don't have any electronic loops or any of that stuff...so there is really no real reason for us to really play to a click. In my other band where I'm the drummer...I don't play to a click at all and we're pretty tight.
 
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ok, so you're a drummer yourself. i was wondering why you seem to have such a good grasp of the situation.

it sounds like you know exactly what the problem is and how to fix it. now all you have to do is deal with him personally and convince him to follow your advice. that could be tricky! good luck!
 
yeah, I play drums too. The drummer in the band that I play guitar in is better in terms of the complexity of the stuff he plays...but I have the better grasp on playing music naturally, and easily feeling the natural rhythm of a song. If you heard us play side by side in each of the bands that we play drums in...you'd say he was the better drummer for sure...assuming he didn't do any wierd screw ups like getting upside down on the beat and stuff like that. However, if you asked us both to spontaneously jam along on a song that we've never heard before...I'd immediately sense the rhythm and play along right on the spot and likely would be able to even sense when the changes in the song were coming, but he would have trouble doing the same thing. He's even said that he's not good at playing something on the spot if he doesn't have it all mapped out. Drums are really the easiest instrument to do that with though because there are no notes to get wrong...just rhythm and feeling. I definately don't claim to be some awesome drummer though and many of my techniques are probably wrong since I've never had lessons but I always keep a steady beat and can feel where my fills should start and end. Hell, I only got my own kit to practice on a year ago and started tinkering more seriously on the drums at that time...but now am in a separate full blown band playing drums and playing gigs with them. I've played guitar and bass for about 17 years though and piano for about 24 years (started when I was 7)...so my grasp on music is very solid. And yes...talking to everyone on this forum has re-assured me that I'm right about this being a situation that needs to be fixed and that I know what needs to be changed. I just needed a lot of feedback from good drummers out there since I myself am only mediocre on the drums...so it's a bit hard for me to tell someone else that they need to play the drums with a different mindset...when that person has been playing that instrument for much longer than I have. It definately is a tricky situation.
 
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what you're talking about now is a topic that's been the subject of many a heated discussion on this forum and that is the question "what makes a good drummer?" is the better drummer the one who plays simply but musically, or the one who shreds the kit? personally, i'd go with the musical drummer, although i think the very best drummers are the ones who can and do play musically, but have the capability to shred when it's called for.

your advantage is that you have a solid understanding of what it takes to make good music regardless of what instrument is involved. it sounds like your drummer is very narrow minded and focused on drumming chops and technique at the expense of the music. i haven't heard him or seen him, but that would be my guess.
 
Dairyairman...I think you may be right about this involving the defination of "a good drummer". I also think you may be right about the drummer in my band worrying more about chops and technique too much. He actually wants to go back to lessons to learn more technique and new chops, but I think that drum lessons won't help him learn to play with other band members any better and won't teach him better listening skills and how to play by feel...unless the drum instructor senses this problem and tries to help him correct it. I would imagine it would be hard for a drum teacher to pin point these issues if he doesn't see how the drummer plays with the rest of the band on a regular basis though. Plus sometimes I wonder if "playing by feel" is something that can really be learned or if it is something you're just born with. That's likely a whole other discussion. And yes, a drummer who can play musically but also shred when needed is definately the very best. If I could only choose one or the other though, just like you...I'd go with the musical drummer. I've learned through this experience that working with somebody who can't feel the music very much is hard because they take way longer to learn songs and are more prone to mistakes. When we learn a new song in the band...whether its one I write or one we all write together...it's the drummer in our group who takes the very longest to get the song learned. He even jokes about it from time to time...since we'll all have our notes, chords, and changes all nailed down...but he'll still sometimes be missing when to change for the chorus or a guitar solo and stuff like that. When we are working on a new song, I'll frequently have to nod and signal him when each change happens otherwise he often won't know when the change is. The other guitar player and bassist quickly figure out where the changes are on their own...and they started learning the song at the same time as the drummer... and the other guitarist and bassist had to learn all the chords and notes on top of knowing the rhythm of the song. And it's not like the drummer isn't trying or practicing...he works very hard at it...even outside of band practice sometimes. I think it's just the difference between someone who is more naturally musical and someone who is not. Like I said earlier...when the drummer gets it all nailed down and doesn't lose count or flip flop the beat...he sounds like a really good drummer. People would be surprised to hear all this stuff if they saw him play on a night where he doesn't make any mistakes. And since he does sound good and is a good friend of mine...that's why I'm so determined to fix the issue, even if I don't get the support from the other band members. If everyone gets angry at me for rocking the boat in the band...and the band breaks up or something...at least I'll know I tried to fix the situation and tried to help someone be a more natural musician...even if it doesn't work out. When people ask me if I think he's a good drummer, I say "yes he's a good drummer, but he needs to work on being a better musician"...when in truth, both things go hand in hand.
 
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ekloot, if he works out his parts exactly and he's fluffing the fills, then those fills are too hard for him. He's leaving himself zero headroom.

Basically, he's practising stuff he should be practising at home in the studio. It's not good enough to be able to pull off a lick 3 times out of 4, not if it throws the whole band off. Funny thing is, usually it's the drummer who has to turn backwards to adust to someone else who's lost the plot.

In the end, what you play has to work with the music as first priority and as a courtesy to band mates. Doing wonderful, glitzy stuff is less important. You have to be prepared to "murder your darlings" (as my Mum would put it) - those groovy little tricks and ideas - if it doesn't enhance the whole.

If replaces some of those fills with more functional ones he could record or write it down the binned fills for future reference where they might come in handy.
 
Pollyanna...that's actually not bad advice...that might be part of the problem sometimes. He's gotten upside down on the beat during super simple fills that he's played perfectly for months though. At the last show which I mentioned in an earlier post...the fill wasn't really a fill at all...he just hits the snare 3 times in a row at the end of the chorus as an accent. It's something that I can even easily do as a drummer and something he has never messed up once in several months. For some reason though, when we were at that show, instead of hitting the snare 3 times in a row...he hit it either only 2 times or he hit it 4 times. I can't remember...I'd have to watch the video. Either way, because of that...he was off by one beat and came out of the chorus upside down into the verse which completely threw me off and I couldn't start singing until I figured out where we were. Once again, I think he said that he just miscounted his hits and as a result got upside down...but then he just stayed that way instead of immediately feeling it was backwards and correcting before the next hit. Like I said, this fill that he messed up was a super easy fill though...not even really a fill at all...just 3 snare hits at a speed that would have only been double time. This was the show that he didn't patch anyone into his in-ear monitors because we were in a hurry and were on a tight stage...so he just played the whole set without actually being able to hear the rest of the band at all...since he has everything counted out and memorized. As has been discussed earlier...that is a terrible way to play...he was playing all by himself that night to the metronome click...and we were playing on top of him. I suspect that in a way...it's a little like that all the time.
 
Let me guess. Your friend really looks down on simple drummers who just play tasty time with feel.

Feel is the missing x-factor. He seems to totally consumed by the mathematical and technical aspects and forgotten about feel. This is a hard thing to correct because it comes down to his value systems - what he believes is good or lame drumming. Without an epiphany I can't see it changing overnight.

Since he's a good friend you don't have much choice but to muddle through and keep trying to encourage an interest in feel - the vibe of the music rather than the technical stuff.

We have a similar issue. The guy who plays keys with us is one of my oldest friends. While he had some piano lessons as a kid it's his #4 instrument after guitar, bass and gamelan. You'd think that would make him try to just play simply and correctly. Yet he keeps trying to play things that are beyond has capabilities and never wants to play the same thing twice. It drives our singer nuts because it disrupts the platform he needs to feel the song.

So that's what we're doing - muddling through. When he gets something right our singer will say, "That's good. Always play it like THAT". Occasionally he will take that advice lol

Some people just don't geddit and probably never will.
 
Yeah Pollyanna, maybe he looks down on simple drummers who just play simple stuff but stay in time...I don't know. I play simpler stuff on the drums in my other band and he's always said that I play pretty well and am very tight especially for not using a metronome...so he's at least always been pretty encouraging to me. I do know that he keeps saying that he wants to be one of those drummers that people watch and say "wow". I don't think he understands that most of those drummers are actually "feeling" what they are playing and are listening closely to the music around them. Even if he does want to be one of those more amazing drummers...he'll never get there by counting every little thing and trying to memorize all this stuff. Eventually, you just get overloaded if you try to play so mechanically and then you start forgetting stuff, losing track of counts, and then making silly mistakes.

And yes Pollyanna, if I was singing over a keyboardist or guitarist who was playing beyond their capabilites and very obviously playing the song very differently every single time...that might be frustrating for me as a singer as well...since it would likely throw me off at times cause I'd be hearing things I wasn't expecting. So I feel for your singer. You're probably right, some people just might never get it.
 
Okay, one more update on this. Today at practice...I noticed that mine and the bass player's amp weren't patched into the drummer's mixer so I didn't think he was able to hear me and the bass player...remember, he wears isolating in-ear monitors and listens to a metronome click through there while he plays in the band. I asked him about it and he said he unplugged us from the mixer on purpose because he wanted to practice without being able to hear us in case that would be the case at our show tonight. I said that he should never be playing without being able to hear us...and he should always be listening to everybody. He kinda took offense and said that he could still hear even though we weren't patched in. However, between his own drums and the isolating in-ear monitors along with metronome click...I wonder how much he could really hear the rest of us clearly...especially since at the last show he claimed he couldn't hear us at all when we weren't patched in. The the bass player and 2nd guitarist backed the drummer up and said that he is the timekeeper and we follow him so it's okay if he can't hear us at all or at least not very well...because we just follow him anyways. But I've been pushing to get the drummer to listen more to the music around him to feel the rhythm and sense the changes because when he relies more on counting...every once in a while he'll come into a chorus or another section of the song at the wrong time or he'll screw up and get upside down on the beat and just stay that way...I don't think these types of mistakes would happen if he was listening to the music around him and letting himself feel the natural groove of the song. I keep stressing how important listening skills are in music and we all need to listen to one another when we play...including the drummer. The rest of them don't seem to think it's as important. I don't get it. I kind of am starting this conversation up here again because I think I'm going to print out the posts that follow this one and just show it to the drummer because maybe he'll take it seriously if the advice is coming from other more professional drummers...some of the earlier posts I don't want to show him because I sound way too frustrated in them.
 
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