drummers who can't read music notation

[Chris Whitten]

You yourself made the comment about people often saying "3 musicians and a drummer" a comment you said offended you. To me that's a shot (not by you) at drummers and infers unintelligence.

Not at all about intelligence. It's the idea that one person has learned to hit things, while the other three have learned to play music.
Of course it is ridiculous. But it is repeated around the rehearsal rooms across the land. No one said anything similar in the thread, so the debate HERE has nothing to do with intelligence. The point of the three musicians and a drummer jibe is that three people have bothered to go further with their skill set, while one hasn't. Which is exactly the point some of us keep making.

 

[Hollywood Jim]

One of the best reasons for reading is that even if you're not after a gig that actually requires reading, it's a great way to learn new music for any musicians you'll be playing with. When I first joined the band I'm currently in, I had to learn about 40 songs. I knew a lot of them but I'd still have struggled to memorise all the drum parts, stops, how many measures, repeats, intros, endings, etc. So I wrote out my own drum parts and read those on the gigs until they were sufficiently embedded in my brain and I eventually didn't need to use them anymore. I do this for any musical situation because it makes my life easier.

YES ! This is exactly how I use my ability to read drum charts. I learned to read drum notation 65 years ago. And I have very rarely used this ability. Curently I am very bad at sight reading. But I do use it to create my own cheat sheets while I am learning new songs.

.

 

[Chris Whitten]

But I do use it to create my own cheat sheets while I am learning new songs.

.

Literally ever week for me.
On my last regular gig I had cheat notation on my set list. Several songs were very similar with just small variations, so I noted those different parts to remind me mid-show.

 

[eric_B]

When I teach, I generally find that new students can barely "hear" anything at all.

When I started playing keys in the late 80s as a teen, we also got a PC.
I bought an Adlib soundcard, Cakewalk (one of the 1st DAWs) and started recreating songs I heard on the radio.
That taught me to listen very carefully to (/ analyse) every instrument and all parts of a song.
It is a skill which has proven valuable over the years as I started playing drums (and a little bass) later.
I can still pick out the individual parts of a new song pretty fast.

That being said, I also learned sight reading back then and that has been useful as well.

Like JimmyM posted before: both are useful skills, one does not exclude the other.

 

[MattRitter]

Thanks for the response, Eric! Great story.

I mentioned that new students generally can't hear anything because it's important for us to realize that virtually no skills come "free." This goes for advanced listening skills, and it also goes for reading skills. Anyone who possesses those skills has worked on them to some degree....just like you did.

I suppose some people might find this to be discouraging because it implies that there is "work" to be done. Actually, I'm sharing this because it can be inspiring to realize that all it takes is some work. In other words, there are no inborn magic powers that are required.

Thanks for your story that further illustrates this.

 

[eric_B]

Thanks for the response, Eric! Great story.

I mentioned that new students generally can't hear anything because it's important for us to realize that virtually no skills come "free." This goes for advanced listening skills, and it also goes for reading skills. Anyone who possesses those skills has worked on them to some degree....just like you did.

I suppose some people might find this to be discouraging because it implies that there is "work" to be done. Actually, I'm sharing this because it can be inspiring to realize that all it takes is some work. In other words, there are no inborn magic powers that are required.

Thanks for your story that further illustrates this.

The funny thing is that it didn't feel like work to me back then.
I came home from school and got right up to my room because I wanted to play and record music.
Learning to listen to music and read sheet music was just part of the process.

Another benefit of analyzing and recreating music is you start to hear and appreciate what is actually going on in songs: little background details - the claps in More Than A Feeling/Boston come to mind, a cowbell in Since You've Been Gone/Rainbow, adding a tambourine hit to each 2nd snare hit, adding soft pad sounds to fill up the background, adding a mono synth to 'thicken' a bassline - song structure, (common) drum patterns (I didn't even play drums then), panning of musical elements, effects like reverb (which type, the amount, which instruments had more, which less), (bouncing) delays synced to the tempo, the list goes on.

Good stuff. I can still listen to and enjoy music without having to (over)analyze every song though

 

[bud7h4]

Not at all about intelligence. It's the idea that one person has learned to hit things, while the other three have learned to play music.
Of course it is ridiculous. But it is repeated around the rehearsal rooms across the land. No one said anything similar in the thread, so the debate HERE has nothing to do with intelligence. The point of the three musicians and a drummer jibe is that three people have bothered to go further with their skill set, while one hasn't. Which is exactly the point some of us keep making.

This analogy seems to compare not reading notation to not being a musician. And if that's not the point then the analogy, or reference, is not a good one.
Since I began learning to read two years ago, it has taught me nothing that I don't already know and understand musically, except how to read notation.

Someone earlier referred to not reading notation as "musical illiteracy" , which is just not accurate, and misleading if the reader doesn't know better. Reading notation is a tool, and for all of it's benefits, it is not the source of musical knowledge or drumming ability, and not what determines your level of musicianship.

None of this means that I'm somehow defending or advocating not learning to read music, or making excuses for those who can't be bothered with it. From the very first minute I've found it enjoyable and useful.

 

[Tamboreter]

I had to learn about 40 songs. I knew a lot of them but I'd still have struggled to memorise all the drum parts, stops, how many measures, repeats, intros, endings, etc. So I wrote out my own drum parts and read those on the gigs until they were sufficiently embedded in my brain and I eventually didn't need to use them anymore. I do this for any musical situation because it makes my life easier.

I do this as well, pretty much for the same reason. We've got over 300 hundred songs (church gig)... playing 6-8 per week.

 

[joedrum]

Not at all about intelligence. It's the idea that one person has learned to hit things, while the other three have learned to play music.
Of course it is ridiculous. But it is repeated around the rehearsal rooms across the land. No one said anything similar in the thread, so the debate HERE has nothing to do with intelligence. The point of the three musicians and a drummer jibe is that three people have bothered to go further with their skill set, while one hasn't. Which is exactly the point some of us keep making.

I agree with your first paragraph but disagree that no one has said similar in this thread. As I stated to you earlier not directly but a few of the comments I took to be something of a shot towards others (again not by yourself). And that's what prompted my own comment. No biggie though.

 

[MattRitter]

Someone earlier referred to not reading notation as "musical illiteracy" , which is just not accurate, and misleading if the reader doesn't know better. Reading notation is a tool, and for all of it's benefits, it is not the source of musical knowledge or drumming ability, and not what determines your level of musicianship.

Hey, Bud7h4

I was tempted to not respond to this post because there really isn't much more to say on this entire matter. After all, we've gone on for 16 pages already!

However, I feel that leaving your post without a response might send the wrong message to people who see this thread in the future. It also might leave YOU with a mistaken interpretation of previous comments...which would be unfortunate. When I read what you wrote in this post (especially the pre-edited version), I get the feeling that you think some of us have been throwing insults at nonreaders. I've gotten this same feeling from some other people's posts as well...posts that talk about "intelligence," for example.

Just to be 100% clear, I myself have never once intended any sort of insult toward nonreaders...and I'm not sure that anybody else has either. As one of several people who've used words like "illiterate," I would like to point out that there is an official definition of that word. To make sure that I wasn't mistaken, I actually just looked it up. The definition of "illiterate" is "unable to read or write." That's all it means—nothing more, nothing less.

A few pages ago, I stated that I see music as being like a language. Obviously, I didn't invent that analogy. It's been around for many decades at least. I then pointed out that if we follow that analogy, we would have to conclude that PLAYING music is like speaking the language, and READING music is like reading the language.

So...how many wonderful speakers are actually unable to read or write (illiterate)? I would guess that the answer is very few.

And how many wonderful musicians are actually unable to read or write (illiterate)? Again, I would guess that the answer is very few. Yes, in the drumming world, we all know about Buddy and Dennis. So they would be part of the few. But on the whole...when we look at the great drummers—the Billy Cobhams, the Omar Hakims, the John Robinsons, the Steve Gadds, etc.—we find that virtually none of them are illiterate (again, using the official definition).

That is all that is being said, and it is being said because it is true. There are no insults going on here.

Since I began learning to read two years ago, it has taught me nothing that I don't already know and understand musically, except how to read notation.

I will be genuinely interested to see if this statement remains true for you with the passing of time. I can tell you that I myself have learned countless things about drumming thanks to my reading ability. I believe that the same thing will happen for you. In fact, you can start immediately. Now that you have become a reader, purchase yourself a copy of Afro-Cuban Rhythms for Drumset. I think you'll find that you absolutely learn some things that you didn't "already know and understand musically."

I sincerely hope that this post has clarified some things that were previously stated by me and others. The last thing we want is for this thread to be seen as some sort of ugly name calling match. It isn't that at all. It's just a debate. No ill will intended whatsoever.

 

[Paul Blood]

yesterday I was hired to play at a church. They sent me an audio of the music they were going to do so I charted it out. This band does a half hour rehearsal before the service then plays the service, all the musicians and singers are hired professional- not volunters. Anyways , I get to the rehearsal to discover several components of the churches drum set were missing. I the band leader is frantic, I tell him that I live 12 minuets away, so I can make it back just in time for service . I get back as the rehearsal is finishing and played the whole service without missing any breaks, intros, played some quirky Tom patterns, switched to brushes, sticks, and mallets. I thought about this thread and felt glad that I made charts. Sure, I listened to the songs throughout the week, but it was unfamiliar material to me and basically I played a near perfect set cold with no rehearsal. Reading, or at least having some sort of notes can be very helpful!

 

[Chris Whitten]

I don't know why some people keep trying to bring it back to 'personal insults'?
I can read music, but I certainly felt inferior musically to Paul McCartney. Of course I did!
He could JUST have been one of the best ever bass players as well as one of the most important songwriters of the 20th century.
But he also plays pretty good drums, quite good guitar and very good piano. Those are all skills he took the trouble to learn.
Learning to read drum charts is just another tool to add to your skill set.

 

[Huw Owens]

After years of being in bands where the process for learning new songs was: go away for a week to listen to record, spend half an hour whilst someone asks to be shown the part they couldn’t work out, play through a couple of times, discuss the train wreck, agree to listen to it again… etc etc,

It’s now a joy to be in a band where the process is: hand out the lead sheet, look it over, agree tempo & order of solos, play through, nod head & say “That’s in the set”.

That happens because everyone can read. It’s a breath of fresh air.

 

[GetAgrippa]

I think that often when a person speaks with some expertise ,so has an authoritative tone, on a topic that people often take their comments as condescending and them as arrogant. I started experiencing that after my Master's degreee and a topic would come up I studied so I'd blab everything (a long continuous stream of thought as I vomit it all out in speech you can barely keep up with-I'm a fast talker) I learned about it and there lies the rub. I guess it's often not what you say but how you say it and how you present to an audience-especially if you use the same terminology you studied and the listener has no clue what the heck you're talking about. I've responded the same way to people speaking on a topic-"Well isn't this fella a know-it-all arrogant SOB" so it was weird to get the same response when I blabbing on and on about something geeky. I wish I was arrogant I'd probably had been more successful and a ladies man-hey I could be President ROFL

I think, for whatever reason, some drummers are real adept at reading/sight reading and other don't care. It's simply a choice. I could go on and on how smoking tobacco-or just vaping nicotine is a huge health hazard and quote stats on how many people die a year from smoking related illness . Which are all factual so you could imply it's ignorant to ignore that. But hey I've ignored it too. I'm just one puff away from addiction again. Consuming alchohol is also a risky business-I don't think cardiologist even recommend it anymore for heart health. I can't cast stones towards peoples choices-whenever I point one finger to castigate there are always three fingers pointing back at me. I'm an idiot not a fool.

 

[Rattlin' Bones]

I think that often when a person speaks with some expertise ,so has an authoritative tone, on a topic that people often take their comments as condescending and them as arrogant. I started experiencing that after my Master's degreee and a topic would come up I studied so I'd blab everything (a long continuous stream of thought as I vomit it all out in speech you can barely keep up with-I'm a fast talker) I learned about it and there lies the rub. I guess it's often not what you say but how you say it and how you present to an audience-especially if you use the same terminology you studied and the listener has no clue what the heck you're talking about. I've responded the same way to people speaking on a topic-"Well isn't this fella a know-it-all arrogant SOB" so it was weird to get the same response when I blabbing on and on about something geeky. I wish I was arrogant I'd probably had been more successful and a ladies man-hey I could be President ROFL

I think, for whatever reason, some drummers are real adept at reading/sight reading and other don't care. It's simply a choice. I could go on and on how smoking tobacco-or just vaping nicotine is a huge health hazard and quote stats on how many people die a year from smoking related illness . Which are all factual so you could imply it's ignorant to ignore that. But hey I've ignored it too. I'm just one puff away from addiction again. Consuming alchohol is also a risky business-I don't think cardiologist even recommend it anymore for heart health. I can't cast stones towards peoples choices-whenever I point one finger to castigate there are always three fingers pointing back at me. I'm an idiot not a fool.


View attachment 145438

Thanks, GetAgrippa. Well articulated. Love the Fight Club-esque pics lol.

This thread did morph dovetail fork away from one of the two questions OP originally asked:
what are your thoughts on the importance of reading vs learning by ear/feel?

This thread speaks to a significant dichotomy between drummers who actively engage in reading music when they perform or prepare to perform - jazz/ all orchestral percussionists/ session studio drummers/touring drummers who back major or semi-major acts/ Contemporary Christian worship players (my gosh I've seen some of their charts and orchestration it's intense) and many many (I contend majority), of casual (which does not connote lazy unskilled or otherwise) drummers who don't even know forums like this exist or if they do they don't care and don't participate and who are CPAs lawyers landscapers drywallers Walmarters nurses plumbers electricians whatever and play an occasional blues gig or rock or country gig - those drummers (like me) who may or may not read music but it isn't an important skill for them because they never have to read any music to do their drum-thing. And that directly answers OP's question - what are your thoughts on the importance of reading vs learning by ear/feel?

 

[Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX]

Thanks, GetAgrippa. Well articulated. Love the Fight Club-esque pics lol.

This thread did morph dovetail fork away from one of the two questions OP originally asked:
what are your thoughts on the importance of reading vs learning by ear/feel?

This thread speaks to a significant dichotomy between drummers who actively engage in reading music when they perform or prepare to perform - jazz/ all orchestral percussionists/ session studio drummers/touring drummers who back major or semi-major acts/ Contemporary Christian worship players (my gosh I've seen some of their charts and orchestration it's intense) and many many (I contend majority), of casual (which does not connote lazy unskilled or otherwise) drummers who don't even know forums like this exist or if they do they don't care and don't participate and who are CPAs lawyers landscapers drywallers Walmarters nurses plumbers electricians whatever and play an occasional blues gig or rock or country gig - those drummers (like me) who may or may not read music but it isn't an important skill for them because they never have to read any music to do their drum-thing. And that directly answers OP's question - what are your thoughts on the importance of reading vs learning by ear/feel?

while I think we have created some tangetns, I don't feel like most of the posts avoided the OP question honestly. I have been a part of this thread from the beginning, and I do think the topic has stayed pretty much on task. Even the foray's into reading music = / ≠ "intelligence" have to do with the importance of reading/not reading in a way.

there have definitely been other threads on this forum that went from "drumming question" to "favorite kind of cheese" real quick. I know i have been guilty of some derails for sure.

 

[Jajeo]

I was just with my drummer friend who doesn't read and noticed he doesn't count - at least the way you count when you read - 1 e and a etc. Hard for him to figure out hits and phrases systematically. He's got to feel it.

 

[joedrum]

while I think we have created some tangetns, I don't feel like most of the posts avoided the OP question honestly. I have been a part of this thread from the beginning, and I do think the topic has stayed pretty much on task. Even the foray's into reading music = / ≠ "intelligence" have to do with the importance of reading/not reading in a way.

there have definitely been other threads on this forum that went from "drumming question" to "favorite kind of cheese" real quick. I know i have been guilty of some derails for sure.

Yes, definitely many threads veer off a little others a lot. One can loose control of their own thread PDQ. But I'm with you this one has stayed pretty much on topic. I think everyone's been very respectful of all who've joined in. Disagreements aren't insults nor is criticism. I'm thrilled to learn from others with different experiences than myself. Not sure but I don't think anyone in this thread has said reading isn't a good thing.

 

[Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX]

Yes, definitely many threads veer off a little others a lot. One can loose control of their own thread PDQ. But I'm with you this one has stayed pretty much on topic. I think everyone's been very respectful of all who've joined in. Disagreements aren't insults nor is criticism. I'm thrilled to learn from others with different experiences than myself. Not sure but I don't think anyone in this thread has said reading isn't a good thing.

I think the world needs to really soak in what that statement means....

 

[toddbishop]

This thread did morph dovetail fork away from one of the two questions OP originally asked:
what are your thoughts on the importance of reading vs learning by ear/feel?

It’s a bad question— it assumes something false. Answering it without correcting it gives you a bad answer.

With drums especially, everybody learns and plays “by ear”— whatever that means— whether they can read or not.