Yikes, I've kicked off another doozy here havn't I?
Just call me Paul the polarizer!
I think in a way this thread can almost be split into two.
1. My fiance has no rhythm whatsoever can I teach her to flow like treacle?
2. Nature or nurture, do drummers plateau at a point where only having an innate natural rhythm can advance their playing?
The answer is probably more nuanced than a simple "some have it, some don't". You might be on to something by saying that it "just needs unlocking".
Relating tasks to motions and movements that we can already do (speaking aloud, clapping, foot tapping, etc.) is really at the heart of the learning process. Salsa dancing is a bit sophisticated for the novice, though, and it's based on music that is exotic to most North Americans. Maybe a bit of experience with simpler dancing would ease the transition, but by now her confidence is probably low.
I think you are right, and a few others have mentioned the same kind of thing. There are obviously shades of grey involved here. I wish I could sit you all in a room with my fiance though and show you, I really have never seen it this bad!
She is a teacher, teaching 5-6 year olds and they have certain times of the week where they just put music on and the kids dance. She marvels at these little tiny people who just have great rhythm. Now she teaches in an inner city London school, her class contains a huge range of ethnicities and languages, very few are native english speakers. she has identified that race plays a part in this ability.
I think she's sort of missing the point here, I think its more a culture thing. Somebody else mentioned living in a house where music was an integral part of growing up in their formative years. Certainly for the african and indian people I know this is much more common and likely than in many of my caucasian friends homes.
We tried salsa, because it became a bit of a thing for a while in the UK, couples learning salsa. Her suggestion, but I totally agree we should have started simpler! The fun fact she will never know is that one of my exes used to be a ballet dancer and we went to salsa dance classes together and tore it up, she actually made me a better dancer. Now that girl had "it".
I might start putting music on in the house and grabbing her for a spin around the living room, build her confidence for the first dance!
Yes...with enough time and energy invested.
Would your relationship survive it?...dunno...
The how is specific to the individual...and not something I would invest time in detailing here other than to say that learning about learning theory is VERY useful in life.
At any rate, let her set the tempo and intensity of the learning lest the page be torn.
Yep, this is the key, does she even want to learn? I'm not sure she is prepared to invest in it, but I do know she wishes she had rhythm.
I watched a couple dancing the other night. They were dancing the swing.
They were really really good. The guy was throwing that girl all over the place. It was fantastic dancing !
However, their steps were not to the beat of the music ?!?!
I have seen this many times before. The couples are dancing up a storm and really enjoying themselves. But not to the beat of the music.
I could never dance like that without stepping to the beat.
I guess I'm missing the point of dancing...........
By the sounds of it they are missing the point of dancing not you!
What weirds me out about this though, even the lady in the OP, I'm going to assume she can walk down the street in a non-awkward manner. Walking is a rhythm. Not only that, it's also coordination and rhythm in one. Take it a step further. We use our sense of rhythms when we speak, even day to day stuff. If you talk without any inflections or accents on your words, or with no sense of normal speaking rhythm, you're going to get a lot of funny looks.
um, yes and no. She can obviously walk down the street without falling over, but she is not blessed with a great deal of general coordination or spatial awareness. Maybe all these things are inter linked?
i remember doing some stuff on proprioception (the sense of the relative position of neighbouring parts of the body and strength of effort being employed in movement, for those who've never heard of it) at university.
She has never really played sport before either, and I think playing sport teaches you that level of body awareness, the ability to absorb and assess your surroundings and fold the whole lot up into how you move your body, whether that be to take a slap shot off your back foot, or dance to a beat.
Also re speaking, she has a problem with tone. She often says things that sound harsh, but she didn't mean them to come out that way. Obviously she doesn't speak with no inflections or accents at all. But interesting that the only funny quirks about her are all kind off related.
being able to play or dance or walk in time and having good "rhythm" are two completely different things
at least to me they are
correct me if I am wrong.... but we are not talking about staying in time metronomically .... and we are not talking about rhythms in the sense of 8th, 16ths, and triplets.... but we are talking about coordinated body movements and them having "rhythm"
correct Tony, that was the essence of my original post.
i think even if we moved into the possible offshoot to this post I suggested above, we are still not talking about metronomic time, more that greasy un-pin downable trait you mentioned previously.
A person with average abilities with a tremendous amount of hard work will never be as good in sports as the natural who practices but not as much.
Hakeem Olajuwon went from never having played basketball to being the best college player in the country in less than 4 years. There are people, just as tall, who could NEVER get to that level, no matter how much they practiced.
It seems to me that rhythm or musicality or talent is like that. I have a friend with whom I have worked for years who still can't feel 4 bars and forget about an anticipated 16th. On the other hand, I've shown the same concepts to others who were like "Of course" and just went with it.
Can it be taught? Yes, but only so far. In the same way that I will never bench press 400 lbs, now matter how much I work out, some people will never be able to play a samba with authenticity.
I agree I do put some stock in the nature argument.
A better way of phrasing the thread title is can rhythm be learned. I believe it can. To be able to teach rhythm relies on if the student can learn it. A giant part of learning is wanting to learn. So if a person doesn't have "it", but recognizes "it" and covets "it", and is a hard and effective worker towards the goal of "it", yes, I believe rhythm can become a part of one's psyche, where it didn't exist or was very underdeveloped before. I can groove now and I couldn't for most of my life, I think it's the same kind of thing. I can't dance very well but I bet I could be taught.
I will try and test the theory if she will learn! Incidentally i thought all drummers could dance?
Can it be taught, absolutely. Does everyone get it, nope. Just like any other activity that requires physical manipulation of the body, some people just aren't rhythmically inclined. There is the guy who loves music but can't clap in time, no matter how much he tries. There are the people who can't dance no matter what. Lets not forget the karaoke folks who know all the words but are all over the place with their placement. Some people just don't get it, and there is no reason to believe that we all have it. Some people just don't get some things. My cooking sucks, and I have been doing it forever. I can't dance one bit, even though I can memorize the steps. To say that everyone has rhythm is like saying that everyone can wiggle their ears. We all have the muscles to do so, but not everyone can do it. I have been trying since I was a kid and still haven't figured it out.
Again, i thought all drummers can dance! and I didn't know we all had the ear wiggling muscles, interesting!
Rhythm can be taught just as a raven can be taught to perform tasks for food or a dog trained to do various tricks. That much is a given.
As far as gaining Elvin Jones' technique, you're gonna develop YOUR technique; you may develop TO Elvin's technique and pattern your flow after his but Elvin you'll never be. There's only one you. Make it count.
Billy I think you have hit on the possible two offshoots to this thread now. 1, I will try tempting her with sweet treats after every successful display of rhythm.
2. Chalk up another proponent of the nature crew!
As a total aside, one of the reasons I think in my fiance it could be unlockable. She normally sings along to songs, but just in bits and pieces, in a total monotone and way way off key. One day she sang one line of a song on the radio not just in key, but she sang a high harmony line version of the main vocal! When I asked her to do it again she couldnt haha.
I also realise I'm making the poor girl come across as a right weirdo, I can assure you all she is lovely!
